Longer wearing tires for track

victorofhavoc · Jul 31, 2018

I took a chance on the Direzza Z3 this year, and while I really enjoy the grip and turn in that they give, they do not wear very well at all. I've got about 3000 miles on them, 3 autocross events, and two track days. The rear tires still have some life, but the fronts are about 1-2mm away from the wear bar. Granted the first day at the track I spent the day learning the car since FWD turbo 4 platform is very new to me, and the second day the tires were squealing bloody murder at every corner.

Is this consistent with the wear everyone else is seeing in the 200TW category?

I've been looking at other tire options that might give better life and have stumbled on R888, R888R, NT01, A048, and a few others. The theory is that the more focused tire wears better at the limit on track, which is semi-true from my experience.

Is anyone running any of these or others that can chime in on wear? I just want a tire that can last me a full season...

Not interested in Hoosiers just yet since the car spends about 3-5k miles per year on the street, and I don't want to be running -3 camber when I swap on the street tires.

alignment spec for reference:
-2.2 camber up front with 1/16th toe out
-1.8 camber rear with 1/16th toe in

odessa.filez · Jul 31, 2018

I would post your question in the track / autocross section.

I may get 100+ AX runs out of re71r, ~40 sec runs, about 70pct on concrete, 30pct on asphalt. This includes rotating after each event and flipping half way thru. Running 3plus degrees camber, no lsd.

victorofhavoc · Aug 1, 2018

odessa.filez said:
I would post your question in the track / autocross section.

I may get 100+ AX runs out of re71r, ~40 sec runs, about 70pct on concrete, 30pct on asphalt. This includes rotating after each event and flipping half way thru. Running 3plus degrees camber, no lsd.

Good point, maybe the mods can move this thread...

So doing the math, 120 autox runs = 4 20 min track session, just 1 day. I think heat cycles play a big role, though, I'm not certain how it equates exactly.

jmason · Aug 1, 2018

I estimate 6 track days max with RE-71s. -2 front -1.5 rear camber. 0 toe. Rotating front/back and side to side, which requires dismount/remount due to rotational directionality of these tires. Most wear is on the outer 2 inches of the tread.

CDM MK7 · Aug 1, 2018

Few things I can think of that may/may not help.

1. In my experiences, the MK7 GTI is extremely hard on front tires. For example, my '17 GTI went through a brand new front set of Bridgestone Blizzak WS80 winter tires within 6 months of daily winter driving (7k miles). From brand new, right down to the wear bar. Completely stock car, stock alignment settings, car is basically new and had 16K miles on it. Never seen anything like it. The rears are what you'd expect for that amount of driving.

2. When you're first learning the FWD platform coming from RWD or AWD, majority of drivers I've given lessons to over the years have leaned towards too much, rather than too little. I'm sure you got comfortable with it in time, but if you say your tires were "screaming bloody murder", you're in the majority. If you're putting down a fast lap, your tires should barely be making a sound. TOTAL assumption on my part, but it sounds like you're hammering your tires - accelerated wear wouldn't be off the table. Again, an assumption on my part - but back off a bit next event and re-focus your line. If you're line is solid, you shouldn't have to be struggling for grip everywhere. FWD is a different beast and you might need to re-asses, especially if you're driving familiar tracks that you've driven with RWD/AWD.

3. I don't run 200TW tires on the GTI (I run 300TW - don't have dedicated track wheels yet for this car), but on previous cars I've run the Direzza Z2, 615K+, RA1, etc. I'm a 5-6 track day and 6-8K miles a summer kind of guy and was getting a good two seasons out of 200TW tires. YMMV

victorofhavoc · Aug 1, 2018

CDM MK7 said:
Few things I can think of that may/may not help.

1. In my experiences, the MK7 GTI is extremely hard on front tires. For example, my '17 GTI went through a brand new front set of Bridgestone Blizzak WS80 winter tires within 6 months of daily winter driving (7k miles). From brand new, right down to the wear bar. Completely stock car, stock alignment settings, car is basically new and had 16K miles on it. Never seen anything like it. The rears are what you'd expect for that amount of driving.

2. When you're first learning the FWD platform coming from RWD or AWD, majority of drivers I've given lessons to over the years have leaned towards too much, rather than too little. I'm sure you got comfortable with it in time, but if you say your tires were "screaming bloody murder", you're in the majority. If you're putting down a fast lap, your tires should barely be making a sound. TOTAL assumption on my part, but it sounds like you're hammering your tires - accelerated wear wouldn't be off the table. Again, an assumption on my part - but back off a bit next event and re-focus your line. If you're line is solid, you shouldn't have to be struggling for grip everywhere. FWD is a different beast and you might need to re-asses, especially if you're driving familiar tracks that you've driven with RWD/AWD.

3. I don't run 200TW tires on the GTI (I run 300TW - don't have dedicated track wheels yet for this car), but on previous cars I've run the Direzza Z2, 615K+, RA1, etc. I'm a 5-6 track day and 6-8K miles a summer kind of guy and was getting a good two seasons out of 200TW tires. YMMV

1. That definitely goes in line with what I've seen from the stock wheels/tires when I pulled them off after I got the car used with 14k miles on it. I'm assuming it has something to do with low end torque.

2. I should clarify on screaming bloody murder. The direzza Z3 are a super chatty tire. I was never struggling for grip with them, but the tire would start to talk when it approached 90%, and it talks as loud as an all season does. I have never driven on a 200TW tire that talks this much, ever. However, when at the limit, the tire had plenty to give and never pushed on me. Part of that is the car setup too. I had a couple very seasoned guys ride with me and neither of them complained about me overdriving the car. There were definitely areas for improvement on the line, but we're talking tenths, not seconds

. My biggest issue with driving line was brake fade changing my corner entry and heatsoak pulling timing and causing more lag.

3. Have you run a more recent crop of 200TW tires? They all seem to be more autox tuned with coming up to temp faster and falling off faster. I'm wondering if the changes are what's caused the Z3 to be wearing this fast. the Z2 and ZSS I had in previous years were much longer wearing...

victorofhavoc · Aug 1, 2018

jmason said:
I estimate 6 track days max with RE-71s. -2 front -1.5 rear camber. 0 toe. Rotating front/back and side to side, which requires dismount/remount due to rotational directionality of these tires. Most wear is on the outer 2 inches of the tread.

yep, I've got a lot of outer wear...definitely needs more camber up front. -1.8 in rear seems to be giving me relatively even wear.

Are you getting 6 days or 6 weekends?

jmason · Aug 1, 2018

victorofhavoc said:
yep, I've got a lot of outer wear...definitely needs more camber up front. -1.8 in rear seems to be giving me relatively even wear.

Are you getting 6 days or 6 weekends?

Days, unfortunately.

Cliff · Aug 1, 2018

victorofhavoc said:
Is this consistent with the wear everyone else is seeing in the 200TW category?

alignment spec for reference:
-2.2 camber up front with 1/16th toe out
-1.8 camber rear with 1/16th toe in

No. I got 13 HPDE days out of my last set of ZII Star Specs. I currently have 28 sessions on my NT01 r-comps and they aren't slicks yet. I got 5 days out of a set of RE71Rs.

I run 0 toe in front, and slight toe in on the back, with -2.4 camber in front and -1.8 in back. I rotate my tires front to rear after every event but I may start doing that every day instead.

jay745 · Aug 1, 2018

Moved to the tracking section.

For the last few seasons I've ran Hankook Ventus RS3's. I got about 15 track days out of them. Previously I ran Rival-S which are similar compound to RE71R and only got 4-5 days out of those. I'm running RS4's this year which are replacing the rs3.

victorofhavoc · Aug 1, 2018

jmason said:
Days, unfortunately.

Cliff said:
No. I got 13 HPDE days out of my last set of ZII Star Specs. I currently have 28 sessions on my NT01 r-comps and they aren't slicks yet. I got 5 days out of a set of RE71Rs.

I run 0 toe in front, and slight toe in on the back, with -2.4 camber in front and -1.8 in back. I rotate my tires front to rear after every event but I may start doing that every day instead.

Thank you! This is exactly the information I was after, and unfortunately confirms my suspicions

.

Cliff, your alignment is very close to mine, so I'd expect our wear to be kind of similar. Maybe one of these days I can convince my wife that the trek out west for Laguna really is worth it, and we can drive together

. That's a track I have ALWAYS wanted to drive.

Would you recommend the NT01?

Jay745 said:
Moved to the tracking section.

For the last few seasons I've ran Hankook Ventus RS3's. I got about 15 track days out of them. Previously I ran Rival-S which are similar compound to RE71R and only got 4-5 days out of those. I'm running RS4's this year which are replacing the rs3.

Thank you for moving the thread.

I'd be curious to know how much life you get out of the RS4 after you've worn them down

Cliff · Aug 1, 2018

victorofhavoc said:
Thank you! This is exactly the information I was after, and unfortunately confirms my suspicions .

Cliff, your alignment is very close to mine, so I'd expect our wear to be kind of similar. Maybe one of these days I can convince my wife that the trek out west for Laguna really is worth it, and we can drive together . That's a track I have ALWAYS wanted to drive.

Would you recommend the NT01?

You might want to zero out your toe in front.

I wouldn't worry about running r-comps until you get more track experience. 200tw tires are going to be a lot more communicative to the driver as they approach their limits than r-comps are. I run both 200tw tires and r-comps, depending on how close I am to the track and/or the weather (i.e.: is it safe drive to the track on the r-comps?) and whether or not I want to swap wheels at the track. I'm not racing so having the absolute fastest tire is not important.

edit: fwiw, I hope to do some road trips in the future to visit my bucket-list tracks which include COTA,*Lime Rock,*Watkins Glen,*VIR,*Mid Ohio,*Barber,*and Road Atlanta. I plan to retire to the Portland, OR area in a few years so PNW tracks are on my nearer horizon. I hit the Ridge last summer and plan to visit PIR and Pacific Raceways next summer.

victorofhavoc · Aug 1, 2018

Cliff said:
You might want to zero out your toe in front.

I wouldn't worry about running r-comps until you get more track experience. 200tw tires are going to be a lot more communicative to the driver as they approach their limits than r-comps are. I run both 200tw tires and r-comps, depending on how close I am to the track and/or the weather (i.e.: is it safe drive to the track on the r-comps?) and whether or not I want to swap wheels at the track. I'm not racing so having the absolute fastest tire is not important.

so far 1/16th out front and 1/16th in rear has been pretty neutral. I'll try 0 next time I mess with alignment and see.

I've done around 30 days in the last 7 years on track, but this is the first FWD car, so the learning experience here is...interesting. I do agree the chattier tires are better for learning a car, but unfortunately it seems the only 200TW tires available today don't really have the longevity that the old 200TW tires did, and that's why I'm looking at more focused options, like the NT01. I'm going to burn up the Z3 until they're completely done (no more street driving for them) and then I'm just looking for best bang for buck to keep learning the platform until I start doing time trials. I just need the Z3 to last the rest of this year, and then something to last the full season next year that won't also turn into a grease puddle by lap 6.

victorofhavoc · Aug 1, 2018

Cliff said:
edit: fwiw, I hope to do some road trips in the future to visit my bucket-list tracks which include COTA,*Lime Rock,*Watkins Glen,*VIR,*Mid Ohio,*Barber,*and Road Atlanta. I plan to retire to the Portland, OR area in a few years so PNW tracks are on my nearer horizon. I hit the Ridge last summer and plan to visit PIR and Pacific Raceways next summer.

I used to live in Atlanta and visited Road Atlanta over a dozen times, as well as VIR a couple of times. Road atlanta was always a blast. VIR is possibly the funnest track I've ever driven. I encountered a lotus there in 2011 that sparked my love of those cars. Never realized how tiny they were until standing next to it!

Cliff · Aug 1, 2018

victorofhavoc said:
so far 1/16th out front and 1/16th in rear has been pretty neutral. I'll try 0 next time I mess with alignment and see.

I've done around 30 days in the last 7 years on track, but this is the first FWD car, so the learning experience here is...interesting. I do agree the chattier tires are better for learning a car, but unfortunately it seems the only 200TW tires available today don't really have the longevity that the old 200TW tires did, and that's why I'm looking at more focused options, like the NT01. I'm going to burn up the Z3 until they're completely done (no more street driving for them) and then I'm just looking for best bang for buck to keep learning the platform until I start doing time trials. I just need the Z3 to last the rest of this year, and then something to last the full season next year that won't also turn into a grease puddle by lap 6.

Ok, your original post said 2 days and I figured that was the count. My mistake. I've got 54 days over 6 seasons so far, 37 of them in the R, with another 6 coming in the next few months.

I bought the last set of ZII Star Specs that TireRack had and mounted them in May. Once they wear out then I will switch to ZIII's.

I like the NT01s, especially since I got my set of 235/40R18s for $675 including heat cycling. Unfortunately Discount Tire has not repeated that offer. They do put them on sale a couple of times a year for $200/tire without heat cycling and I'll buy a fresh set at that price when the time comes. They are grippier than the Dunlops. Forum comments suggest that people see 40 heat cycles from them. I'm at 28 now, and the tires still have a bit of tread left. From what I understand, they get better once the tread is gone.

Longer wearing tires for track

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