Tracking, street they are perfectly fine. I have firehawk indy 500. Never did my brakes overwhelm the tires in the dry and make abs kick in. On the third track day my brake pads disintegrated and my calipers are now black instead of red and much of the paint is bubbled.
7
NQSBBK vs PP Brakes
- Thread starter DAS_STIG
- Start date
Tracking, street they are perfectly fine. I have firehawk indy 500. Never did my brakes overwhelm the tires in the dry and make abs kick in. On the third track day my brake pads disintegrated and my calipers are now black instead of red and much of the paint is bubbled.
i think you are doing the correct thing, but please research pads, pad size and availability and cost before you decide on a caliper.
with my mini friend we went so far as brake ducts, to no avail.
the stock PP calipers and pads are big and not expensive.
if i could figure out how to export harrys lap timer i would put up some video of the sebring short course with the gti.
btw, i am curious as to what you find. i would love to go to a 4 piston quick change front caliper, but it would have to fit under my 17 inch oz wheels.
nuespeed is the only on i have found. and 2k for just a set of calipers is kinda pricey.
beers
Calipers are in no way a heat sink of any value with the amount of heat being generated. The advantage of aluminum is weight. This is critical weight because it is unsprung weight. Same reason you want two piece rotors, lightweight wheels etc. It really makes a difference to the suspension if you can lighten those critical areas.
Anyway good luck on your search for calipers, you will be happy but it will take some work going from buying the cores to putting a finished system on your car.
WhyNotZoidberg?
Ready to race!
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- Chi-Town
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- 2017 GTI, 2015 TDI
It's not the heatsink effect, heat transfer has to do with how fast they absorb the heat generated and how fast they get rid of it in the airflow.
The TTS brakes are a straight-up swap for PP, there's no more work than that.
I'm not in any hurry, I'll have them done by spring. Right now I'm putting winter shoes on my stock Nogaros. I have a few months to get some 8.5" wheels w/ 43 offset or less to put summer 245's on, decide on some pads that would stand track abuse and see if I can find braided brake lines that would fit.
So I guess that has been my concern - I know the rotors act as the primary heat sink in the system, so if I upgrade to the 986 calipers I still would not fix the issue of my pads getting too hot since the rotors are still the 312mm and get a lot hotter than 340mm, correct? So the calipers would really only help the fluid stay a bit cooler and possibly give me a firmer brake pedal with more modulation.
sprinks
Drag Racing Champion
- Location
- United States
The 340 rotors buy you more time to get to the same temperature as the 312. How much longer? Well without doing some heat transfer calcs, i can't tell you exactly.
However, what also buys you more time is better ventilation to the braking area. If you're upgrading brakes without taking that into consideration and worried about heating the brakes, i think you've only solved half of the problem. The popular rs3 flaps are out there, but if this is a serious tracked vehicle, might want to be looking for ducting solutions.
However, what also buys you more time is better ventilation to the braking area. If you're upgrading brakes without taking that into consideration and worried about heating the brakes, i think you've only solved half of the problem. The popular rs3 flaps are out there, but if this is a serious tracked vehicle, might want to be looking for ducting solutions.
Already have the RS3 air guides installed. The 340mm rotors should in theory not reach the same temp due to the large vented volume and higher capability to dissipate heat.
Not to start an argument but for clarity, heat transfer and getting rid of heat in the airflow is the definition of a heatsink.
TTS calipers look like a great choice too. The really nice thing about the Brembos is being able to remove one easy to access pin and swap pads. If you are at all going to track you will want to run pads specific for that heat range of operation and much higher friction rating.
When you get braided lines for the Brembo calipers don't use banjo fittings as they will leak. The MKIV R32 lines are of the right type and usually correct length. Folks try the banjo fittings and usually over tighten and strip out the caliper.
Well your original inquiry was about track use and the complaint was about lost braking due to overheating.
Typical aggressive street pads have a max operating temp of 700-800 degrees, an aggressive track pad will have a max operating temp of something like 1200-1400 degrees while still providing almost full bite and that bite will be much stronger than a street pad. When you exceed the operating temps you already know what it feels like.
The other thing that exacerbates temps at the track is driving style. When we drive on the street we tend to do very long boulevard stops. For folks just beginning to do track driving that translates to increased heat for the brakes. Late hard braking for a shorter interval will work better and give your brakes just that much more time to recover.
You have air ducts so that is a big help, constant supply of fresh air does help.
I ran with the equivalent PP calipers (Golf R) on the track with track pads on pretty fast courses and they worked great for 3 years on my 335whp MKV GTI. Putting in fresh hi-temp Dot4 fluid before each event and selecting a pad material manufactured for a much higher operating temperature.
Note - real track pads don't bite well when cold so not really safe for street use and they will typically be noisy and dusty but they also have a much high friction rating so less pedal pressure to get same braking and no fade because they operate well in pretty high temps.
PP set with proper fluid and pad will work for track use. Going the Brembo route with proper fluid and pads would still work very well and provide a few nice benefits:
1. Much lighter - it will help your suspension track even better.
2. Much easier to change pads. (see pic below, pull center pin and pads lift right out)
3. When properly painted they look
I went with Brembos on my MKV refresh. Unfortunately I have not driven the car yet so I can't provide a review. Got them front and back 18z and put in a larger Master Cylinder from the Audi RS3 and I will run with Hawk Blues to start for the track.
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If you were managing 335 WHP on the 345mm setup, should the 312mm should be capable of handling my stock MK7? Would you agree with Swoope that maybe I should try better quality, track dedicated pads first? I ran these, which knowing what I know now was a mistake:
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-isweep-...ro-tt-8s-20t-quattro--front-/is2500-1338~isp/
and maybe I should have gone for something like these and swapped them out before track days:
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-isweep-...ro-tt-8s-20t-quattro--front-/is3500-1338~isp/
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-isweep-...ro-tt-8s-20t-quattro--front-/is4000-1338~isp/
On my third day the is2500 pads literally disintegrated. Started the day with 7mm and ended 1mm and some metal on metal after two 20 minute sessions. The above links are just examples as I am trying to find something from one of the higher rated brands like Pagid/Endless/Ferodo/PFC/Carbone Lorraine that have pads for the non-PP, but all I am finding at the moment are the Ferodo 2500 and Endless MX72. Would love to save the money if it is realistic to not upgrade to a PP setup, but nervous about brake failure if the 312mm simply can't handle track duty.
Edit:
Another note - is there much of a downside to using one of the 345mm setups on the MK7? I believe the B6 Passat/CC also used a similar setup on the VR6 models and I am finding them in local salvage yards for $100 for a pair of the front calipers! I read that it's a heavier setup than the MK7 PP/Golf R 340mm, but for that cost savings I doubt it makes much difference at my experience level. ECS seems to have the older 345mm setups for sale for the MK7 and I do not see any adapters included so guessing it's a direct bolt up?
I am also seeing the upside to the 986 brakes - a lot more pad choices from the above mentioned companies.
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-isweep-...ro-tt-8s-20t-quattro--front-/is2500-1338~isp/
and maybe I should have gone for something like these and swapped them out before track days:
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-isweep-...ro-tt-8s-20t-quattro--front-/is3500-1338~isp/
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-isweep-...ro-tt-8s-20t-quattro--front-/is4000-1338~isp/
On my third day the is2500 pads literally disintegrated. Started the day with 7mm and ended 1mm and some metal on metal after two 20 minute sessions. The above links are just examples as I am trying to find something from one of the higher rated brands like Pagid/Endless/Ferodo/PFC/Carbone Lorraine that have pads for the non-PP, but all I am finding at the moment are the Ferodo 2500 and Endless MX72. Would love to save the money if it is realistic to not upgrade to a PP setup, but nervous about brake failure if the 312mm simply can't handle track duty.
Edit:
Another note - is there much of a downside to using one of the 345mm setups on the MK7? I believe the B6 Passat/CC also used a similar setup on the VR6 models and I am finding them in local salvage yards for $100 for a pair of the front calipers! I read that it's a heavier setup than the MK7 PP/Golf R 340mm, but for that cost savings I doubt it makes much difference at my experience level. ECS seems to have the older 345mm setups for sale for the MK7 and I do not see any adapters included so guessing it's a direct bolt up?
I am also seeing the upside to the 986 brakes - a lot more pad choices from the above mentioned companies.
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YES!
Start with a reasonably fresh set of rotors, new ATE200 or Motul600 brake fluid that is new for each track session, Go to ECS and get following pads for track.
Hawk DTC-60 for front
Hawk HT-10 for rear
Total cost of all pads probably 360 plus the usual tax and shipping.
Run this at the track and you will see a HUGE diff at what I would consider a reasonable price.
These are track pads and first stops may be iffy especially in colder weather so be cautious until you get used to them.
If after all this you still run into heat related issues you may indeed be ready for some larger brakes, but I feel pretty good that you will fare well with this setup.
These will put you through the windshield when you lay into them when they are at operating temperature.
Sidenote - Early on before upgrading calipers I tried using different pads on stock calipers that were your same size and I ran Endless MX-72 pads, which were stupid expensive but I was bored and wasted a bunch of money (just front set was 400) However they did improve the stock brakes by a large margin. I would not recommend the MX-72 pad on this caliper for the track but for heavy canyon carving and daily driving they were superb.