2019 GTI revealed in Australia

the only example I know was my Mustang (V6 2012) it was 29 hwy MT and 31 AT. It wouldn't shock me if there were more examples

Twist said:

Umm... don't even the manufacturers claim manual gets better from the factory? With tuned mk7s, I would expect the gap to be even more significant. Lower RPMS does not always mean higher gas mileage and the stock DSG loves to lug the engine..

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No. I don't remember what the MT MK7's are rated compared to the DSG MK7's, but I know the MT MK6 was 21/31 EPA MPG, while the DSG was 24/32. My MT MK6 got closer to 27/33.

My DSG MK7 gets worse MPG both around town as well as on the highway than advertised. My MT MK7 got the same city mileage, and better highway than it was rated for

Not really sure how this MT versus AT is still an argument...

This is as inane as Honda vs VW, Ford vs Chevy, etc etc. arguments.

People are going to buy what they want. Companies sell what they think will make them the most money.

Unfortunately in the U.S., the market has shifted towards ATs. Look at all the news articles about car jackers getting thwarted by a MT.

Best example is Ford. They're planning on cutting out production of passenger vehicles (except mustang) from North America. I'm sure there are tons of people that are sad about not having the Taurus SHO around anymore. But that group of people is such a percentage of potential new customers/returning customers that some analyst/team at Ford basically said screw it. All SUVs and Trucks.

For miles per gallon thing... There was a shift at one point in which AT did get better MPG. That happened when cars with ATs were offered with more gears than the MT.

For a recent example...

https://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/models/gt-fastback/

Ecoboost and GT get either the same or better gas mileage (applies to both city and highway). Now in real life... that may be different.

adam1991 said:

Absolutely it does.

Maybe you were absent that day when they covered percentages in math class.

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You certainly weren't absent the day they covered snark.

In your little bubble 1 mpg may classify as "very measurably better" but in the real world that's commonly known as hyperbole.

adam1991 said:

Thanks for confirming, they don't build and sell what you want. They build and sell what they want. For you to get what you want, you must go to the used market.

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I confirmed no such thing. I'm an enthusiast. I'm not the norm.

Honda builds cars for the common lemming not "what they want". Why this has to be spelled out I'm not sure?

adam1991 said:

I would tell you to go take even the briefest look at Honda's transmission woes as well as VCM. It wouldn't take long.

Nevertheless, just because YOU have "no idea" what's going on in the world, doesn't mean it's not going on in the world.

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Honda had transmission woes in the mid 2000's. Just because they had one subset of issues does not mean every offering since has been plagued. Ironically the majority effected were AT.

Wrath And Tears said:

With Bush Jr. no longer in office, I never thought the first bumper sticker I ever bought would be relevant again. "Somewhere in Texas a village is missing it's idiot." Joking here Greens, but you should probably stop while you are so far behind.

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Perception is subjective. I firmly believe I'm the one doing the proverbial bitch slapping at the moment.

This guys wants to spout hyperbole as fact and proving his perspective on AT vs MT. Someone has to call him out.

greens said:

Perception is subjective. I firmly believe I'm the one doing the proverbial bitch slapping at the moment.

This guys wants to spout hyperbole as fact and proving his perspective on AT vs MT. Someone has to call him out.

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Right but you are in the wrong, on a purely factual basis... Your opinion is great and all, but not backed up by facts in this day and age. 20 years (probably even less) ago you would be correct, but no longer. Sorry man, I get that the truth hurts.

Stick Shift Myths

20-21mpg = 5%...not enough to change my mind but 5% raise would be sweet.


I see MT's as becoming obsolete (or <1%) in my lifetime and I'm older than avg.


I did smile at the don't need an airbag line......same for seat-belts?

Twist said:

Umm... don't even the manufacturers claim manual gets better from the factory?

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Civic Sedan:
MT 28 city/40 hwy/32 combined
AT 31 city/40 hwy/34 combined

City, the AT gets 10.7% better gas mileage. That's nothing to sneeze at, if you're Honda staring down the barrel of the gov't regulators.

Combined, that's 6.25% better gas mileage.

Honda has been quoting these kinds of numbers for quite some time now.

Between keeping the regulators off their backs AND the extremely small take of manual trans cars in the field (which leads to higher costs overall in creating and supporting the low-take MT), it's no wonder senior management at automakers wants to know why they should spend the money to keep the MT alive.

It's not that they won't, but every day, every week, every year they need a better and better story to keep it alive. Pretty soon there won't be a story good enough to continue to spend the money and effort.

greens said:

Honda had transmission woes in the mid 2000's. Just because they had one subset of issues does not mean every offering since has been plagued. Ironically the majority effected were AT.

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Yes, they were the ATs hooked to heavy V6 cars and trucks. And it wasn't as brief as you imply; it was MY1998 through MY2005.

And in the middle, they actually changed from a 4 speed trans to a 5 speed trans. They had EVERY opportunity to change things up, but they didn't. They continued to engineer, and then build, crap.

And how convenient of you to ignore VCM. 2007--they start putting VCM into their V6 engines, an implementation that destroyed engines left and right. They were grenading as fast as the transmissions did during those 8 years before they decided to fix things.

And in both cases--transmission and VCM--they stuck their heads in the sand.

Honda isn't building what people want. Honda is building what Honda wants. They then use marketing to sell it, to convince people that "hey, we have what you want".

They're also trading on their reputation they gained from 1980 through 1998, when they made absolutely bulletproof cars. The cars had a crappy feature set--radios you couldn't hear, and vinyl seats were standard as were manual windows--but Honda provided the very appliance experience that Americans wanted, that you insist is inherently "wrong" to want.

You desperately don't want the simple facts to be facts, so you spout "IT'S HYPERBOLE!" and hope that people will listen to you.

greens said:

Perception is subjective. I firmly believe I'm the one doing the proverbial bitch slapping at the moment.

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Well, we can test that: does your face hurt? (yes) (yes) Choose one answer.

Yeah, you're bitch slapping all right. Remember, practice does make perfect--should you ever get the opportunity.

I assume it's time to mention real men like to play with shafts and knobs.....


too soon?


folks, make your choice but if you only want MT's your days of new cars will probably come to an end. Your car, your choice but the argument an AT is always a demerit doesn't hold true. If I commuted far in heavy traffic I'm sure I would have picked the DSG. You can drive like Mario Andretti when you want and just point and shoot when you are feeling a bit lazy or in traffic.


(and wife) Mrs Mud has owned MT's. I asked if she wanted to try my MT GTI and was told "no" because MT. It's cool if you and your Love can drive stick and I still think folks should know how but it's something that is going away.


forgot to add my 2 trucks (Taco and older Chevy plow truck) I am glad both are AT

vj123 said:

What would you do when all manufacturers takes AT route with every changes happening in the industry especially with autonomous driving and other regulations. At some MT will die and one has to accept the reality. I drove manuals all my life and GTI was the first vehicle with AT. Infact the DSG was one of the main reason why i chose a GTI and i had zero regrets.

There was a time when turbocharged engines were a big nono for enthusiasts and guess what, there are only a handful of options with every manufacturer now.

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There will always be a market for MT cars, even if it gets so small that barely anyone is serving it. Honda still only offers their Si and Type-R trims in manual only, Mazda will always offer manual transmissions in a few vehicles (they're basically a niche company already, so why not) and definitely in the Miata, and I'm guessing there will always be an MT available for Porsche's sports cars, because Porsche owners are the people who actually made the company reverse their decision to discontinue the 911, back in the late 1970s. Almost forgot: even though only 3% of Corvettes are MT, GM will always offer it. Just because.



All that aside, we have the same thing in common; the GTI is the first car I've ever owned (out of 10) that didn't have 3 pedals, and I don't regret my decision one bit. The barely-noticeable difference in EPA fuel economy is more than made up for by having a transmission that is the best of both worlds, and won't need to be removed 6 months after I add more power to the engine because the clutch packed up.



I also remember the hand-grenades that were the early turbo engines of the 1980s. Even if you took every possible precaution, the turbochargers were just waiting to fail before 100,000 miles.

Shane_Anigans said:

There will always be a market for MT cars, even if it gets so small that barely anyone is serving it. Honda still only offers their Si and Type-R trims in manual only, Mazda will always offer manual transmissions in a few vehicles (they're basically a niche company already, so why not) and definitely in the Miata, and I'm guessing there will always be an MT available for Porsche's sports cars, because Porsche owners are the people who actually made the company reverse their decision to discontinue the 911, back in the late 1970s. Almost forgot: even though only 3% of Corvettes are MT, GM will always offer it. Just because.

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Yes there will be a market for MTs but that doesnt mean manufacturers are going to offer that as an option. One has to consider other influencing factors as well:

- Cost: Most automotive companies are considered to be money making machines. Decisions are taken purely on profit stand point of view and there is no place for emotions. All they want is to show improved profit numbers to the investors every other quarter. It takes a lot of effort and resources to launch and sell a MT version of the vehicle. In that case, why would the manufacturers spend their resources on a declining segment of buyers. I have come across several people here owning their first AT (GTI / R) after driving MTs for ages including you and me. If that's the case with enthusiasts just think about the common buyers.

- Technology: With all autonomous features coming in (i am not talking about fully autonomous cars but just level 3 and 4), there is no way there can combine those features with a MT transmission. I am not a big fan of them, but in reality we are going to see more and more cars with those features. Companies cannot sell products if they are not introducing any new or cool features. In the case of iPhones, they was just a mobile phone to begin with but its much more than a phone now. How many of us are utilizing every other feature in it. Most consumers out there want to flaunt by owning the latest (which they think is the greatest). Every company out there are adding features onto their products and forcing it onto the consumer whether they need them of not. Its the same case with autonomous driving features on cars.

- Market share: Ours might be the last generation where people are emotionally connected to cars. For most people in the newer generation, its just a transportation method from point A to B. Still there might be a few people inclined towards cars but all i can say is that its drastically reducing. Lets talk about reality: I am working for a R&D team of renowned auto supplier who has footprint all over the world. We have some open positions in the team for more than 6 months as there arent many people out there (especially recent college graduates) who wants to talk up jobs with a passion for automobile and get their hands dirty at work.

Would i like to see MTs sold in the future? Absolutely yes.
Will that happen? Probably not (except a few high end sports cars).

adam1991 said:

You desperately don't want the simple facts to be facts, so you spout "IT'S HYPERBOLE!" and hope that people will listen to you.

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How do "simple facts" differentiate themselves from complex facts? Your pseudo-intellectual shtick is a challenge to keep up with.

adam1991 said:

Well, we can test that: does your face hurt? (yes) (yes) Choose one answer.

Yeah, you're bitch slapping all right. Remember, practice does make perfect--should you ever get the opportunity.

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Sounds as though you speak from experience. Go easy on yourself.

vj123 said:

- Market share: Ours might be the last generation where people are emotionally connected to cars. For most people in the newer generation, its just a transportation method from point A to B.

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Absolutely. For better or worse, the pocket computer and social media are to today's youngsters what cars were to the high schoolers of the 50s.

Society matures and changes. Phones and FB have grabbed the attention of the young people. (Well, that and the outrage/identity industrial complex.)

greens said:

How do "simple facts" differentiate themselves from complex facts?

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Simple facts are easy to grasp even by people like you.

That you don't, means that you've chosen to ignore the facts.