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Old 06-20-2019, 05:41 PM   #1
jmason
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Seeking Stoptech ST-40 and ST-60 User Insights

I'm considering replacing my current brake setup. At this point, a Stoptech 355mm BBK is my first choice. Where I am undecided is whether or not I should change my setup at all, will the ST-40 BBK provide all the benefits that I am trying to achieve, or will I regret not going all the way to the ST-60?

Current setup: DD untuned GTI 6MT non-PP. 330mm 4-piston Brembo (with Hawk DTC-60 for track days). Brake ducts. Dust shield removed. ATE-200. 3 track events/year; may increase to 5/year. Tracks most driven are considered technical (many turns, lots of brake use).

What I'm trying to achieve: Longer pad life; good replacement parts availability; headroom for potential power increase; maintain F/R brake bias; shortened braking zone would be nice; no downsides to DD use.

The following is a list of pros, cons, and unknowns. Are there other considerations I have missed? Please provide comment on your experience.

Brembo Pros:
No issues with brake fade or soft pedal
Fits 17" wheel
Pads and rotors reasonably priced
Reasonable rotor life
F/R brake bias unaffected

Brembo Cons:
Limited sources for some replacement parts or not available at all
Rapid brake pad wear (replacement required after two track days with EBC Blue, Hawk DTC-60, or Pagid)
Limited to slotted or cross-drilled one-piece rotors
Rapid deterioration of piston dust boots due to heat (no hi-temp versions available; would require use of Ti shims to mitigate)
Can't fit brakelines such that they don't rub inside edge of barrel of 17" wheels at full steering lock

Brembo Unknowns:
Near performance limit, especially if I get a tune?
Is there better performance (shorter braking zone, better heat mitigation, longer pad life) to be had?
Piston seals near the end of their service life (no signs, just concerned)? Not clear if replacement is a DIY project.

Generic Stoptech Pros:
Larger rotor should provide better heat management and greater brake torque
Wider choice of replacement rotors then Brembo
Two-piece rotor lighter than one-piece
Caliper replacement parts readily available
High temp dust boots and pistons available (no need for Ti shims)

Generic Stoptech Cons:
Acquisition cost (up to $3k for new BBK)
Replacement rotors 50% more expensive than Brembo
Rotor replacement more involved (dismount/mount rotor on hat)
Requires 18" wheels (need to acquire, tires more expensive)

Generic Stoptech Unknowns:
Will replacement yield significantly better performance (shorter braking zone, better heat mitigation, longer pad life)?
Rotor life?
Al hat susceptible to corrosion from salt exposure in winter?
Easier caliper maintenance (can disassemble caliper to service pistons)?

Specific ST-40 Pros:
Pads comparably sized/priced to Brembo
F/R brake bias likely unaffected

Specific ST-40 Unknowns:
Are there sufficient advantages over Brembo to justify expense?

Specific ST-60 Pros:
Larger/thicker pad then either Brembo or ST-40

Specific ST-60 Cons:
Pads more expensive
Higher acquisition cost than ST-40
Caliper heavier than ST-40
Higher maintenance cost due to more pistons

Specific ST-60 Unknowns:
Anticipated longer pad life offset higher cost?
Are there sufficient advantages over ST-40 to justify expense?
Is heavier caliper an issue?
F/R brake bias effected?
Overkill?
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Old 06-20-2019, 06:01 PM   #2
billbadass
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before swapping everything if pad life and heat are your main concern worth trying the pagid yellow 29 pads, they seem pretty invincible from my experience and I'd think with some titanium pad shims you probably would get 90% of the benefit of a bigger brake upgrade setup with like 10% of the cost.

I was lazy and actually left them in for like 4 months in my daily drive car and they were barely worn and the rotors still look new too. They are super easy on the rotors, take heat like a mofo and last a long time. bit of squeel but honestly if my wife didn't drive the car too I'd have just left the pagid ins full time as its not nearly as bad as I expected for a race pad

the ST40 is so easy to swap pads, but I'm also massively lazy. So my setup is st40 335m kit (so can use stock rims) with two piece rotor and then use pagid 29 pads at the track and endless 72 pads on the street . i have titanium shims also but have not tried them or installed them yet, but they're only $100 so why not. I also have the Rs3 air deflectors, no heat shield and castrol SRF fluid and stainless lines. my car is jb4 only and with 034 rear sway bar and michelin ps4s tires So i'm basically on stock suspension but with more power so I'd think my brake abuse is about similar to what you're expriencing.

also just heads up but if you end up with st40 test fit the pads and for some reason some pads and some st40 kits require a little shaving down the pad "ears" with a dremel for smooth operation and easy intall

absolutely love my st40 kit and now one of my favorite things about this car, but i think pagid 29 pads will get you what you want. also i made some changes with OBD11 to my brake settings and that also massively improved the brake feel and was cheap to try.

just my $0.02

Last edited by billbadass; 06-20-2019 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 06-20-2019, 06:02 PM   #3
billbadass
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I don't know about the st60 but the reason I went with st40 is those calipers use the same pads as the "big red" turbo porsche brakes so the pad selection is virtually endless, which is really nice to just choose basically any compound that exists.
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:09 PM   #4
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I love my ST40 and only paid $1390 for them brand new.

Tons of information on that if you looked in the braking forums before posting this
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:48 PM   #5
jmason
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gti jake View Post
Tons of information on that if you looked in the braking forums before posting this
Thank you for your response.

Searching the forum can provide valuable information. I did search. I found that most of the entries were somewhat superficial. I am looking for a bit deeper responses that address the questions that I brought up in my post.
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:03 PM   #6
uberpolka
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IMO:



Keeping the Brembos would be the best option if you can find a good combo of street and track pads that work for you.



The stoptechs I believe are going to be better built for racing and track days, but I don't think it's worth the cost to upgrade to them with what you already have.





I love my st-60's, but I don't track the car to utilize them fully.
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmason View Post
Current setup: DD untuned GTI 6MT non-PP. 330mm 4-piston Brembo (with Hawk DTC-60 for track days). Brake ducts. Dust shield removed. ATE-200. 3 track events/year; may increase to 5/year. Tracks most driven are considered technical (many turns, lots of brake use).

What I'm trying to achieve: Longer pad life; good replacement parts availability; headroom for potential power increase; maintain F/R brake bias; shortened braking zone would be nice; no downsides to DD use.
If 3 events per year are the same as 3 track days per year, then your pads should probably last you at least a year and probably longer. I don't know why pad life is a concern for you. What pad shape do your Brembo calipers use? The FMSI number or Hawk part number would be helpful to share. I would be inclined to switch to a higher temp fluid as I have boiled Ate fluid before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by billbadass View Post
I was lazy and actually left them in for like 4 months in my daily drive car and they were barely worn and the rotors still look new too. They are super easy on the rotors, take heat like a mofo and last a long time. bit of squeel but honestly if my wife didn't drive the car too I'd have just left the pagid ins full time as its not nearly as bad as I expected for a race pad
I have a set in my car right now and they have been on the car for 3 months. The bite and torque are solid at low temps (California low temps, that is). They are a bit noisy when coming to a stop but I can ignore that. They don't seem abrasive enough to clean pad material left on the rotors by street pads so I am inclined to just leave them in and run them all the time.
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:39 PM   #8
jmason
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
If 3 events per year are the same as 3 track days per year, then your pads should probably last you at least a year and probably longer. I don't know why pad life is a concern for you. What pad shape do your Brembo calipers use? The FMSI number or Hawk part number would be helpful to share. I would be inclined to switch to a higher temp fluid as I have boiled Ate fluid before.
The FMSI number is D1053.

Three events = 7 track days = 28 sessions. After 8 sessions, the pads are near the thickness of the backing plate. I could likely get another session, but then I'd have to replace hot pads before I'd go back out onto the track for the following session. Thus, I change out the pads in between track days when the brakes are cool but still may have some life.

Everyone I talk to says the pads should last longer. The track-specific versions of brands I have tried (EBC, Hawk, Pagid) all last about the same length of time. To be clear, I have turned off the braking feature that acts like a limited slip diff, so that's not eating the pads.
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Old 06-21-2019, 05:50 PM   #9
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I have extensive history with Stoptech and different pads.

Pads do make a huge difference as I'm sure you're aware of. I started my track days running Carbotech pads. What a joke! They were basically done after a three day weekend and left so many pad deposits that I had to sand the rotor to get it smooth again to where my steering wheel wasn't vibrating badly every time I touched the brakes.

You stated that you tried Pagid. Which ones?
We've been using Pagid RS29 endurance pads for a few years now. They have lasted a full 12 hours of endurance racing (non-stop racing) without a problem. We still had some pad life left on the fronts. Rears could have gone another 6 - 8 hours easily. That's in a 3,200lb. BMW 335 that will hit over 150 mph on some of the tracks we attend.

To answer your question regarding what you have currently vs. Stoptechs.
Are your current rotors one-piece? It seems like it from your pros/cons.

Two-piece rotors will reduce the temps as the aluminum hat allows the heat to dissipate easier and quicker.

TBH: You should be able to go with the Stoptech ST40 with the 328mm two-piece rotors without a problem using the correct pads and fluid. This would be plenty of braking power, plus give you the option of running 17" wheels if you so choose. I'm running this exact same setup on my car, but I haven't tracked it yet. I mostly run our race car on track (BMW 335).
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Old 07-02-2019, 04:36 AM   #10
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I’m running the smaller Mk7 BBK from PowerBrake 330x32 4-piston setup so I can run 17” wheels. 255-40-17 NT01’s.

They recommended that I go with their 350x34 6-piston BBK. Two reasons: 50% larger pad area = longer pad life and larger rotor for heat capacity. Unfortunately this kit would not fit under a 17” wheel. You will not see a significant improvement in performance between the 4-piston and 6-piston BBK other than improved longevity of pad and rotor life when the right pads is selected for your max heat range.

I ran 215 laps on a set of pads on a 3.3 mile track. That’s 710 racing miles. Which included a one hour session of 26-laps in one sitting. 215 laps is roughly 8.4hrs of track time. Pretty much an endurance race distance. Just providing some perspective. I keep a mechanical log on all my vehicles in miles. I need to add track miles or number of laps to some of my consumable items like pads, rotors, brake fluid, tires.

I have not tried Pagid RS29’s in my BBK but I was pleasantly surprised by their life on my PP brakes.

So having worked with the guys at PowerBrake I would recommend that you get some heat strips to put on your calipers and also get some heat paint to put on your rotors. It is important to get the right pad for the max heat range you are getting the rotor too.

Pads used outside there heat “zone” will see accelerated wear. The second half of your pad material will also wear at a faster rate than the first half. Less material to absorb the heat.

Depending on your track, a tune is likely to add another 10mph on the main straight which will tax the brakes even more from a wear perspective. You will have to shorten your maintenance intervals on your Brembos. The increased heat will shorten seal life.

Out of curiosity, what is the pad size for your Brembos?
And
Which is your “home” track that you run predominantly?
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Old 07-02-2019, 02:07 PM   #11
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The Brembo uses a FMSI D1053 pad, which is 109.7 x 69.1 mm. Common fitment is to a rear brake (!).
My home track is Summit Point, usually the "Main" circuit.
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Old 07-03-2019, 04:49 PM   #12
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I’ve actually had good success with carbotechs and they’ve lasted me 4-5 track days (xp8s) and now I’ve switched to carbotech xp12s. They’re not going to last as long as endurance pads because they aren’t endurance pads and they’re supposedly friendly on the rotor. I’d rather my pads get eaten up over my rotors
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Old 07-03-2019, 06:42 PM   #13
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I’ve actually had good success with carbotechs and they’ve lasted me 4-5 track days (xp8s) and now I’ve switched to carbotech xp12s. They’re not going to last as long as endurance pads because they aren’t endurance pads and they’re supposedly friendly on the rotor. I’d rather my pads get eaten up over my rotors
Why? Rotors are cheaper.

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Old 07-04-2019, 12:26 AM   #14
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I'm a first time Carbotech user (previously used DTC-60 and HT-10 in Mk6), daily driven xps10/8 F/R. The most amazing thing happened the other day at the car wash... the dust washed off the wheels with almost no effort!
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Old 07-04-2019, 12:55 AM   #15
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Why? Rotors are cheaper.

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his rotors are AP Racing 355mm rotors.
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Old 07-04-2019, 01:06 AM   #16
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his rotors are AP Racing 355mm rotors.
Ah, that makes sense.

That's why I'm staying stock size and focusing on cooling. Might do Macan front calipers to make swapping pads easier.

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Old 07-06-2019, 08:59 AM   #17
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Seeking Stoptech ST 40 and ST 60 User Insights

Weekly bump

Anyone considering these shoot me a PM and we will see if we can work something out.
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