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Old 05-06-2018, 04:16 AM   #52
MonkeyMD
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Back to the topic at hand.

Doesn't the manual that Admiral posted state that the engine will shut off when Start stop is activated, car is stopped, seatbelt is off, no pedals are depressed, drivers door is opened. I think open and shut case. Unless I misread that.
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Old 05-06-2018, 05:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by MonkeyMD View Post
Back to the topic at hand.

Doesn't the manual that Admiral posted state that the engine will shut off when Start stop is activated, car is stopped, seatbelt is off, no pedals are depressed, drivers door is opened. I think open and shut case. Unless I misread that.
That's what the manual says. On those occasions where I stop, shift to Park, the engine does not go off yet, take my foot off the brake, remove my seatbelt and open the door, yes the engine goes off then. This would be like dropping someone off and my getting out of the car to get something out of the hatch for them and the engine shuts off. So the scenario quoted in the manual does work that way in that particular case.

But that's not quite the scenario for me which is the point of my original question. I will pull into a parking spot, stop with my foot on the brake, door closed, seatbelt on and move the shift lever to Park and the engine shuts off sometimes and other times it stays on. So I have not yet taken my foot off the brake, unlatched the seat belt or opened the door per the quoted manual section so the engine should not shut off.

It's not really the fact it shuts off or doesn't shut off but rather that it does it sometimes and other times it does not. I believe it should do it all the time or not do it all the time. And, considering I'm in Race/Sport mode all the time, start/stop should be deactivated and the engine should not shut off until I press the Start/Stop button (or during the quoted manual section above) but it does (sometimes) when simply moving the shift lever to Park.

So, to me, this is inconsistent, poorly documented, and definitely not intuitive.

And you have a manual tranny so I don't think it happens for you.
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by kevinkar View Post
It's not really the fact it shuts off or doesn't shut off but rather that it does it sometimes and other times it does not. I believe it should do it all the time or not do it all the time.
RTFM. The owner's manual specifically states that it will do it sometimes and other times not.

You are experiencing that very scenario, yet you are denying--despite the now revealed actual documentation--that it should ever happen that way.

again: what makes you say that the behavior you initially observed is the "right" behavior and that today's behavior is the "wrong" behavior? Is it simply that "initially it always did it, but now it doesn't always do it"?


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And, considering I'm in Race/Sport mode all the time, start/stop should be deactivated and the engine should not shut off until I press the Start/Stop button (or during the quoted manual section above) but it does (sometimes) when simply moving the shift lever to Park.
Per the documentation that we see, that is correct--it should not shut off at all in race/sport mode. I can see three considerations:

* the manual is wrong
* your car is broken/not functioning to spec
* you're not in race/sport mode despite you thinking you are

As an engineer, you should appreciate that you can control for the third item above and test for it very carefully.


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So, to me, this is inconsistent, poorly documented, and definitely not intuitive.
The manual should have already clued you in that the start/stop behavior is programmed to behave in ways you consider "inconsistent"--for example, you don't have direct knowledge of the charge state of the battery therefore you wouldn't know what effect that has on the system's decision to turn the engine off or not.

If the system is behaving as the engineers intended, it surely is poorly documented at best. But at least the documentation does clue you in that at least some behavior you consider "inconsistent" is actually programmatically correct.

And of course, there's the "it's broken" thing.

I can see the lawyers programming in the behavior of "if start/stop has the engine stopped, AND the car is in Park, AND the seatbelt is unbuckled, AND the door is opened--then turn the system off" in order to avoid the inevitable lawsuits from people like those who leave their cars "on" in their attached garages and got CO poisoning or death, all because they didn't understand keyless start and start/stop.
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Old 05-06-2018, 03:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by kevinkar View Post
That's what the manual says. On those occasions where I stop, shift to Park, the engine does not go off yet, take my foot off the brake, remove my seatbelt and open the door, yes the engine goes off then. This would be like dropping someone off and my getting out of the car to get something out of the hatch for them and the engine shuts off. So the scenario quoted in the manual does work that way in that particular case.

But that's not quite the scenario for me which is the point of my original question. I will pull into a parking spot, stop with my foot on the brake, door closed, seatbelt on and move the shift lever to Park and the engine shuts off sometimes and other times it stays on. So I have not yet taken my foot off the brake, unlatched the seat belt or opened the door per the quoted manual section so the engine should not shut off.

It's not really the fact it shuts off or doesn't shut off but rather that it does it sometimes and other times it does not. I believe it should do it all the time or not do it all the time. And, considering I'm in Race/Sport mode all the time, start/stop should be deactivated and the engine should not shut off until I press the Start/Stop button (or during the quoted manual section above) but it does (sometimes) when simply moving the shift lever to Park.

So, to me, this is inconsistent, poorly documented, and definitely not intuitive.

And you have a manual tranny so I don't think it happens for you.
Why are you so dead set on not accepting that the car is working exactly as intended?

When you thought that the car had shut down, it had merely gone into stop/start mode. Sometime thereafter it probably gave up (when you took your foot off the gas, unbuckled your belt and opened the door) and shut everything off.

I'm out of this thread. I don't suffer fools well.
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Old 05-06-2018, 05:50 PM   #56
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Pressing the button works 100% of the time for me.
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:51 PM   #57
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I'm out of this thread. I don't suffer fools well.
Yay! About time.
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:02 PM   #58
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so you're celebrating the exit of one of the few people who are able/willing to help you?

And you're doing so, why? Because you don't like the message, so you're killing the messenger?

And you're an "aerospace engineer"?
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:37 PM   #59
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RTFM. The owner's manual specifically states that it will do it sometimes and other times not.
Auto start/stop, yes, shifting to Park, no.

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You are experiencing that very scenario, yet you are denying--despite the now revealed actual documentation--that it should ever happen that way.
Incorrect. Manual does not specifically state this in the "now revealed actual documentation".

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Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
again: what makes you say that the behavior you initially observed is the "right" behavior and that today's behavior is the "wrong" behavior? Is it simply that "initially it always did it, but now it doesn't always do it"?
You're obsessed over that one statement and I suggest you let that one go because It's not really critical to the discussion (whether someone thinks it is right or wrong.) It just is.

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Originally Posted by adam1991 View Post
Per the documentation that we see, that is correct--it should not shut off at all in race/sport mode. I can see three considerations:

* the manual is wrong
* your car is broken/not functioning to spec
* you're not in race/sport mode despite you thinking you are

.....you don't have direct knowledge of the charge state of the battery therefore you wouldn't know what effect that has on the system's decision to turn the engine off or not.
Bingo! Owner does NOT KNOW with certainty what the conditions are to arrive at an outcome and that is the very definition of inconsistent. Your implication that just because I don't know all possibly logic paths is MY fault for "not understanding how it works" when the car is doing something different on any given day and that's not proper.

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so you're celebrating the exit of one of the few people who are able/willing to help you?
Yes I am. You've been less than friendly so I definitely would like you to stop "helping". Apparently you can't handle that and have to keep replying. That's your issue, not mine.

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And you're an "aerospace engineer"?
Comments like that are exactly why I'm happy you're moving on. What does my profession have to do with your reply? You're stating it as if that's a problem so you're directly attacking me because of my job. What possible use is that other than to try and tear the other person down? So I'm definitely hoping you put me in your ignore list and move on.
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Old 05-06-2018, 07:39 PM   #60
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Pressing the button works 100% of the time for me.
Yes it does! I'd prefer to press the button to shut off the engine rather than the car decide to do so based on some odd algorithm I can't diving with certainty. Apparently disabling the start/stop system is not 100% foolproof as the car seems to do it anyway sometimes.
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Old 05-06-2018, 08:20 PM   #61
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Bingo! Owner does NOT KNOW with certainty what the conditions are to arrive at an outcome and that is the very definition of inconsistent.
Absolutely not. The owner is told that there are a number of conditions that will affect this, and in fact is told that many of those conditions are ones that the user CAN'T know--like state of battery charge.

Just the simple fact that there are things you can't know, should tell you volumes. You seem to be obsessed over not being able to know absolutely every condition at every moment, and you declare that to be VW's fault.

Quote:
Your implication that just because I don't know all possibly logic paths is MY fault for "not understanding how it works" when the car is doing something different on any given day and that's not proper.
It's your responsibility to acknowledge and accept that "yeah, they say it can happen for reasons I don't know".

Quote:
What does my profession have to do with your reply? You're stating it as if that's a problem so you're directly attacking me because of my job.
Well, you're putting forth that operating a simple modern day Golf is beyond the abilities of an aerospace engineer.

That's kind of frightening.
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Old 05-07-2018, 12:40 AM   #62
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You seem to be obsessed over not being able to know absolutely every condition at every moment, and you declare that to be VW's fault.
And you are obsessed over this thread. You need to chill out and walk away. If this is so frustrating to you, please move on.
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Old 05-07-2018, 12:53 AM   #63
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Apparently disabling the start/stop system is not 100% foolproof as the car seems to do it anyway sometimes.
Are you saying that when you disable start & stop on your car with the button if you put it in park it shuts off the engine?
This never happens on mine.
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Old 05-07-2018, 01:08 AM   #64
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Are you saying that when you disable start & stop on your car with the button if you put it in park it shuts off the engine?
This never happens on mine.
That would point to a SERIOUSLY broken system, if it does that. I would fear driving it anywhere, if it behaved like that.

I'm sure the engineer has already tested for that. ??
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:18 AM   #65
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Are you saying that when you disable start & stop on your car with the button if you put it in park it shuts off the engine?
This never happens on mine.
Yes, this is what happens but only sometimes. I'm trying to determine what specific criteria is making the car decide this is the appropriate action but have yet been unable to pin it down.
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:19 AM   #66
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I'm sure the engineer has already tested for that. ??
You keep proving me right. You're more concerned with bashing me than simply moving on.
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Old 05-07-2018, 10:58 AM   #67
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You keep proving me right. You're more concerned with bashing me than simply moving on.
Well, that's a datum point you'd not given us.

You're comfortable driving a car that shuts itself off DESPITE being told, explicitly, never to do that under any circumstances??

Tell us again why you aren't at the dealer explaining that you fear for your life if you drive the car??
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Old 05-07-2018, 04:31 PM   #68
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Well, that's a datum point you'd not given us.

You're comfortable driving a car that shuts itself off DESPITE being told, explicitly, never to do that under any circumstances??

Tell us again why you aren't at the dealer explaining that you fear for your life if you drive the car??
Seriously?

What car have you ever driven that doesn't come to a screeching halt when shifting into Park under motion? Uh, none I bet. So there's no life-threatening issue here. And who told me "explicitly, never to do that under any circumstances??" I guess I better RTFM to see where it says to never drive a car in Park. Must have missed that one.
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