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Old 05-03-2018, 11:55 AM   #18
adam1991
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Originally Posted by kevinkar View Post
I expect a car to work *normally* and not do one thing one day and another thing the next day when I didn't do anything different. In my case, different days bring different outcomes which is not how a car should normally work.
But that's EXACTLY how start/stop works on a car with a normal 12v battery under the hood. And that was my ENTIRE point on RTFM: you were looking at putting the car into park and getting out of the car and somehow it divines that you're leaving the car. We were pointing out that it's no doubt somewhere else in TFM, part of the start/stop mechanism--and the manual should explain, in great detail, how the start/stop mechanism works, including the conditions under which it won't work.

In the case of a car with a normal 12v battery under the hood and a start/stop mechanism in place, those "different outcomes" are, in fact, the car working normally.

Even the Prius with its big honking traction battery has situations where the engine will be running while the car is stopped at a light or in park or whatever.

Last edited by adam1991; 05-03-2018 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:06 PM   #19
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In reality, there probably is a scenario where - if in stop/start - the car has figured that you actually want to shut down (opening the door?) and actually turns the car off but I'm not sure that I'd trust that.
Exactly what is happening, he/she should also be getting a message on the dash about the lights shutting off in 30 minutes when you don't shut down the car properly eg. the car is in in Park, start/stop is activated and a door opens.

I for one am happy start/stop is designed not to stop all the time and keep the heater going when it is -30. Design working as intended.

You shut the car down by pressing the stop button. That's it.

Doesn't this car have a coolant pump that runs when the car is shut down anyway? I always let it idle a bit after a long highway run but I think that is just an old habit I have, unnecessary on these cars.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:02 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kevinkar View Post
I expect a car to work *normally* and not do one thing one day and another thing the next day when I didn't do anything different. In my case, different days bring different outcomes which is not how a car should normally work.
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But that's EXACTLY how start/stop works on a car with a normal 12v battery under the hood. And that was my ENTIRE point on RTFM: you were looking at putting the car into park and getting out of the car and somehow it divines that you're leaving the car. We were pointing out that it's no doubt somewhere else in TFM, part of the start/stop mechanism--and the manual should explain, in great detail, how the start/stop mechanism works, including the conditions under which it won't work.
You're OK with a car doing something different with identical criteria but I'm not. Two identical trips with two different outcomes is not EXACTLY how a car should work and I'd like to understand the reasons it's doing this. Apparently the car is very specific about one or more of the criteria and it's not something obvious which is determining what's going on.

The manual does describe some of this but not in as great a detail as you think; there are only two sections I can find that address start/stop and not one of them says anything about the engine shutting off when moving to Park. As far as I can tell, it should not turn off when moving to Park.
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Old 05-03-2018, 08:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by kevinkar View Post
You're OK with a car doing something different with identical criteria but I'm not. Two identical trips with two different outcomes is not EXACTLY how a car should work
One trip at below freezing temps and another trip at the height of summer--those are not "identical" trips no matter how hard you want them to be.

At least, not to the stop/start mechanism they're not.


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and I'd like to understand the reasons it's doing this.
See above. Different conditions generate different outcomes.


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Apparently the car is very specific about one or more of the criteria and it's not something obvious which is determining what's going on.
If VW does not document this to the end user, shame on VW.

Nonetheless, it is what's happening.

As they put mild hybrid stuff into future generations and we're not worrying about the SOC of a small 12v battery, some of these differences will go away. But you'll still have the engine running in the depths of a harsh winter in order to provide heat, whereas it wouldn't be running on a spring day.

You will still see differences thanks to the stop/start mechanism.

Quote:
The manual does describe some of this but not in as great a detail as you think; there are only two sections I can find that address start/stop and not one of them says anything about the engine shutting off when moving to Park. As far as I can tell, it should not turn off when moving to Park.
Shame on VW, then.

But frankly, I can easily see the system shutting the engine down when you put it into Park. If the 12v battery is fully charged and the climate control system doesn't need to run much if at all, then your putting it into Park is a clear signal that We Will Be Here For Awhile. It's sort of like sitting at a traffic light waiting for the signal to turn, but with a clearer signal that we're not moving soon at all.

So I can see it shutting the *engine* down, but the *system* is still on and in a state of readiness. (In fact, in the Prius they have a light that tells you when everything's good to go--it's called Ready. The system is ready, go ahead and drive.) As has been pointed out, it's up to YOU, the pilot in command, to shut the *system* down.

The system is not the engine. That's old school. Old school was different:
Engine off? Great, we're definitely not going anywhere. (Not so anymore, not with stop/start.) Oh, let me get that key out of the ignition... (Not so anymore, not with Kessy.)

I think the technology has surpassed your willingness to accept it. The engine may not be running, but the car is ready to drive away as you take your foot off the pedal. Or as soon as you take it out of Park. All without the engine running.

Engine off does not mean system off. Does not mean that you can get out of the car and go inside. You, the pilot, must *actively* turn the system Off.

As this is VW's first foray into this, I can imagine they missed it in the user's guide. They took the 2017 owner's manual and "adapted" it for 2018, and the documentation people probably never got the full engineering message on what's different about the stop/start mechanism.

Have you looked at the relevant section of the Know Your VW web site? They have a video. I know, it's more RTFM. So be it.

Plus, were I you, I'd be bugging my dealer service department for any documentation *they* have on all of this.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:11 AM   #22
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One trip at below freezing temps and another trip at the height of summer--those are not "identical" trips no matter how hard you want them to be.
This is not what's happening here in sunny Southern California - I assure you my two reference trips were identical. One was not sunny and the other freezing.

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Nonetheless, it is what's happening.
Pretty much what I've been saying but I want to know why so *I* can adapt to it and make the car do what *I* want it to. Yes, if this is scattershot and esoteric functionality, shame on VW for not being more precise in the manual. I shouldn't have to try to understand it. It should just work and work consistently.

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But frankly, I can easily see the system shutting the engine down when you put it into Park. If the 12v battery is fully charged and the climate control system doesn't need to run much if at all, then your putting it into Park is a clear signal that We Will Be Here For Awhile.
So earlier you kind of called me out for appearing to expect the car to divine what I wanted which you indicated was somewhat foolhardy on my part but here you are using that very idea to explain what the car is doing! So if we pretend for a second the car is not doing that but rather following a logic diagram of cause and effect, I'm basically trying to discern the causes that arrive at an effect and KNOW what to expect. Sadly the manual does not do a good job of providing that information and, based on my reading of it, the car does not do what I expect in spite of the manual's verbiage.

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The system is not the engine. That's old school. Old school was different....
I just got out of a C6 Corvette that did not shut off completely unless you put it in Reverse. Otherwise the system remained charged until the battery was depleted. I'm well aware of this paradigm.

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I think the technology has surpassed your willingness to accept it.
Not correct. I'm an aerospace engineer and well aware of how all forms of technology work. But thanks for assuming I'm unable to adapt to new technology.

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Engine off does not mean system off. Does not mean that you can get out of the car and go inside. You, the pilot, must *actively* turn the system Off.
That's only part of the equation here. One - the car sometimes shuts the engine off when shifting into Park and other times not when I can see no valid reason that should happen at all. Two - the start/stop function sometimes works and sometimes does not even though the conditions are the same in each trip (again, not sunny/freezing.) And I never suggested the car was ever completely off and I could simply walk away from it without pressing the Start/Stop button. The original premise was "Hey, the engine shut off when shifting into Park but now does not. How do I do that again?" but now it happens or doesn't happen and there's no clear reason why. Why my frustration at that seems to annoy you I do not understand.

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Have you looked at the relevant section of the Know Your VW web site? They have a video. I know, it's more RTFM. So be it.

Plus, were I you, I'd be bugging my dealer service department for any documentation *they* have on all of this.
I have not yet looked at any VW videos but will. At some point I'll have to bring it in and ask though I don't have high hopes anyone at a dealer or dealer service center will know any more than anyone else given how lame most dealers are these days.
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Old 05-04-2018, 02:05 AM   #23
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... And I never suggested the car was ever completely off and I could simply walk away from it without pressing the Start/Stop button. The original premise was "Hey, the engine shut off when shifting into Park but now does not. How do I do that again?" but now it happens or doesn't happen and there's no clear reason why. ....
Actually, that is exactly how I (and I assume most everyone here) read your initial post when you said "So the first week I have had my 2018 R it was set right - stop the car, put it in Park and the engine shuts off. I get out, lock it and go about my day."

Sounds to me like you just got out and walked away.

Let's stop beating a dead horse. I feel your frustration that the car seemingly does different things at different times. I think your issue is related to start/stop and that system has so many variables that even minor differences can have an impact on how the system functions.
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Old 05-04-2018, 03:41 AM   #24
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Yeah, I'll have to try this. Thanks. Seems the electronics are pretty convoluted in certain circumstances and there's no full logic tree or table to follow to set it all up with the right outcome. Have to figure it out on your own. I'll see if setting it this way makes this function return.
Kevin,
My car did the same thing a few times. It only shuts off when i put it in park if my front sensors are going off i.e. in my garage and the car senses the garbage bags close to the bumper. This is the only time it shuts when I put it in park.
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:07 AM   #25
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My car did the same thing a few times. It only shuts off when i put it in park if my front sensors are going off i.e. in my garage and the car senses the garbage bags close to the bumper. This is the only time it shuts when I put it in park.
Mine does it randomly in the garage, at the parking lot at work, on the driveway at home, etc. and sometimes it doesn't! No real rhyme or reason which is why it's so frustrating. But thanks for the data points.
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Old 05-04-2018, 04:41 PM   #26
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Perhaps your car is too complicated for you? May I suggest this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-rare-V...AAAOSwOy1apawu
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(Mostly) Posted by Josh/AWE. Flapper valves are open at idle, close after 1100 RPM during part throttle. Full throttle 1st-4th gear the valves open until throttle let off. 4th gear, 1500 RPM to full throttle closed, closed until 3500 RPM, then open until lift off throttle.
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Old 05-04-2018, 05:41 PM   #27
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Perhaps your car is too complicated for you? May I suggest this?
Ouch. I'm so humiliated. Thank you for putting me in my place.

Too bad there are forum rules otherwise my First Amendment rights would not currently be infringed.
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Old 05-04-2018, 10:49 PM   #28
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And I never suggested the car was ever completely off and I could simply walk away from it without pressing the Start/Stop button.
No?

From your very first post that started this thread:

Quote:
So the first week I have had my 2018 R it was set right - stop the car, put it in Park and the engine shuts off. I get out, lock it and go about my day. Today, after driving around with the wife for a while, it no longer does that and I must press the Start/Stop button to turn off the engine.
So which is it?
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Old 05-04-2018, 11:06 PM   #29
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Ouch. I'm so humiliated. Thank you for putting me in my place.

Too bad there are forum rules otherwise my First Amendment rights would not currently be infringed.
Not following. You wrote whatever you wanted. So did everyone else. Am I missing something, or are your rights more than anyone else's? It's not like anyone called you something nasty. If your feelings are that easily hurt, this is not the forum for you.
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(Mostly) Posted by Josh/AWE. Flapper valves are open at idle, close after 1100 RPM during part throttle. Full throttle 1st-4th gear the valves open until throttle let off. 4th gear, 1500 RPM to full throttle closed, closed until 3500 RPM, then open until lift off throttle.
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Old 05-04-2018, 11:41 PM   #30
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No? From your very first post that started this thread: So which is it?
It's both. The car is not being consistent. I'm attempting to get to the bottom of it. So it's OK for the car to be inconsistent but I can't?

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Not following. You wrote whatever you wanted. So did everyone else. Am I missing something, or are your rights more than anyone else's? It's not like anyone called you something nasty. If your feelings are that easily hurt, this is not the forum for you.
Snarky replies like yours don't help. Instead of berating the person who is simply asking questions and trying to have a positive discussion, maybe your replies should be a bit more helpful. Instead your only two replies implied I was cheap and stupid. So forum rules require I be civil and can't appropriately reply. Suffice it to say, if you don't have any helpful solutions perhaps you should be the one moving along.
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:22 AM   #31
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The car is being consistent to its rules, which are to prevent damage and a run down battery.

Your problem is that you don't understand the rules, and you turn that into "it's being inconsistent"--when it's not.

Then there's your initial statement about putting it into park and then getting out and walking away, and your later denial that you ever said that. THAT's not being consistent at all, under ANY rules--known or otherwise.

So no. You may not be inconsistent, and you may not use your lack of understanding of the car's behavior to declare that you're allowed to be "inconsistent just like the car is".

That you don't understand the rules doesn't mean the car isn't rigidly adhering to the rules you simply don't know.

You have a complaint: "VW doesn't specify the conditions under which stop/start does its thing". That's valid. The rest of it all is just nonsense and noise--especially the bit about how it's "being inconsistent" when it's not.
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Old 05-05-2018, 05:34 AM   #32
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The car is being consistent to its rules, which are to prevent damage and a run down battery.

Your problem is that you don't understand the rules, and you turn that into "it's being inconsistent"--when it's not.

Then there's your initial statement about putting it into park and then getting out and walking away, and your later denial that you ever said that. THAT's not being consistent at all, under ANY rules--known or otherwise.

So no. You may not be inconsistent, and you may not use your lack of understanding of the car's behavior to declare that you're allowed to be "inconsistent just like the car is".

That you don't understand the rules doesn't mean the car isn't rigidly adhering to the rules you simply don't know.

You have a complaint: "VW doesn't specify the conditions under which stop/start does its thing". That's valid. The rest of it all is just nonsense and noise--especially the bit about how it's "being inconsistent" when it's not.
Look goofball, I admit to not quite understanding the logic behind what the car is doing - and VW is not doing a proper job of explaining it - but the fact of the matter is the human who drives the car should not have to sit there and wonder WTF is going on. A car should work intuitively and not make the owner wonder what esoteric item will result in which particular outcome. That's totally F'd up. YOU may be OK with that but I'm not.

YOU may not like that this one particular owner is confused or annoyed by it but that's the point of these forums! A problem exists and questions are asked to try and resolve it. Beating me up over it solves nothing other than to make yourself and others feel superior which does nothing to help.

If you're annoyed by the conversation, please ignore this thread. You're not helping. No one is forcing you to read or reply.
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Old 05-05-2018, 07:55 AM   #33
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the human who drives the car should not have to sit there and wonder WTF is going on.
I don't disagree with that. It should be documented to the user. But you seemed unable to grasp that something rational IS going on. Your not knowing the rationale behind the behavior doesn't change that.

What's more, you started this entire thread by saying that "I put it into park, it turned off, I got out of the car and walked away"--and THAT is pure IRrational thought pattern and behavior (behavior that you later denied describing, for some reason).

No one here can fathom that you thought the fact that "it turned off" (by that you mean the engine stopped running) meant "it knew I was finished with it" as opposed to "I'm simply sitting here waiting for a friend, continuing to want heat or A/C and some radio". Why you thought the car divined this out of thin air, confuses everyone--because it's not logical or rational. You've always had to turn a car off before; why would you ever think it's different today? The first time this happened to you, why didn't you question THAT behavior? The driver always has the responsibility of turning the car on AND off, deliberately. I'd be worried if the entire car system shut itself down by itself, same as if I pushed the Stop button. What if that happened while I was driving? That's a complete unknown, and not the desired behavior at all under any circumstances.

What made you think the car can read your mind?

Only when it stopped turning the engine off did you question this, as you continued to think that it should somehow read your mind and turn the entire car off when you put it into Park for the purpose of leaving the car. When you put your question to the world with this irrational expectation, everyone was confused.

And of course, the real answer was and is that the car is behaving in a programmed manner. You didn't want to believe that, simply because (a) you didn't understand the programming, and more importantly (b) you continued to assume that the car was supposed to divine your intention and shut the entire system down automatically whenever you wanted to leave the car.

The entire start/stop behavior is documented somewhere. VW's videos do outline 5 or 6 items that the system checks on, such as state of charge of the battery, requirement for heat or window defrost, etc. If the owner's manual doesn't have it, contact VW Customer Care or ask your dealer service people or spend the money for a day's worth of VW service manuals online and poke around.

But don't hold your breath for some magical button to tell the system to divine when you're leaving the car and turn itself off without you pushing the Stop button.
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Old 05-05-2018, 12:41 PM   #34
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So the first week I have had my 2018 R it was set right - stop the car, put it in Park and the engine shuts off. I get out, lock it and go about my day.
Where did you ever get the notion in the first place that the behavior you saw during the first week was "right" or correct--especially given that you can't find any mention of any of this in the owner's manual???
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