At these temp ranges, all seasons will generally outperform winter tires. Winter tires are great, but only in the extreme cold; they're jelly in the 50's and you'll wear them out quickly. The night time lows will make a dedicated summer tire a little too hard to be effective. My vote is summer tires for the new wheels, keep the stock all seasons for the 3-4 months you'll need them and get your use out of them. After both sets wear out, just get good all seasons for your nice wheels.
7
New Wheels going on soon - get summers or stay with all seasons?
- Thread starter caleb.mk7
- Start date
At these temp ranges, all seasons will generally outperform winter tires. Winter tires are great, but only in the extreme cold; they're jelly in the 50's and you'll wear them out quickly. The night time lows will make a dedicated summer tire a little too hard to be effective. My vote is summer tires for the new wheels, keep the stock all seasons for the 3-4 months you'll need them and get your use out of them. After both sets wear out, just get good all seasons for your nice wheels.
2015WhiteGTI
Go Kart Champion
- Location
- Chester Springs, PA
I'm on the other side of the fence when it comes to all-season tires.
I have extensive experience between high-performance tires, all-season and dedicated snow tires on the same vehicle.
Vehicle 1: 2012 BMW X3 (wife's car)
We started out on the Bridgestone all-season tires that came on it stock. They were okay in terms of grip, noise and all around driveability in all weather conditions. Water evac was okay, not the best.
Then, I got her a set of Advan T5 wheels in 19x8.5 and put Conti DW performance high performance summer tires in 245/45. The road feel was much better and the propensity to hydroplane was greatly reduced. Overall, the feeling was much more sure footed. Oh, and the wheel/tire combination is 17lbs. per corner lighter with this setup. Yes, the stock X3 and non-runflat tires weigh a ton.
When the stock tires gave up, I put Michelin X-Ice Xi3 snow tires on. This tire is unbelievable in all types of conditions. I feel it's more of a hybrid rather than a true snow tire as in "normal" driving conditions where there isn't any snow and ice, the tires do fine. They are a bit soft, but perfectly acceptable. When the snow falls and it's really cold is where they are fantastic compared to the all-season. They cut through the muck so much quicker and easier to give you a better road feel and more confidence in the drive.
The Conti DW's wore out, so I wanted to get something that could overlap the winter months a bit easier than a true summer, high performance tire, so I listened to all those people saying that all-seasons are REALLY good now and you don't need a high performance tire. DON'T BELIEVE IT! I now have the Michelin Pilot A/S 3+ on her Advan T5 wheels. Compared to the Conti DW, they suck. There is no where near the feeling in the steering wheel as the DW's had. The grip is not as good (the sidewall is softer for sure) and the resistance to hydroplaning is not as good either. Overall, it's a definite step down. I wish I would have gotten either the Conti SportContact or another high performance summer tire to get the most out of the larger wheel/tire combination. I personally driver her car quite a bit and there is something lacking from the driving experience.
Vehicle 2: 2015 GTI (my car)
Stock it came with the Pirelli all-season tires. Okay, I guess when my car was stock, but once it was tuned, terrible. No traction whatsoever in the dry and the rain/snow was worse.
I got my aftermarket wheels (first Volk RE30 Clubsports then Volk TE37SL) and went to a 245/40R17 in Michelin PSS. Yes, this was a major difference! Wet or dry, they are night and day better than any all-season I've had on the car (and I'm comparing to the latest Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ that I have in stock size now for the winter.
Winter, I put all-season tires on as I wanted the option to run these longer than a dedicated snow tire like my wife's X3 has. Again, I went by what everyone else was saying to run the all-season tires. What a mistake! The grip in the slush and snow is horrible. Steering response is horrible and doesn't cut through the snow the way it needs to. I'm very disappointed! I will be getting a dedicated snow tire the next time. In the dry/warmer weather, the all-seasons are fine. They are an improvement over the stock Pirelli's for sure, but they are not even close to the Michelin PSS I have for the summer. I can't imagine the difference with the new PS4S that are probably going on my car next.
Vehicle 3: 2006 BMW 330i (previous car)
The stock Bridgestone RFTs where absolute crap!
I changed to wider Michelin PSS over the last few years that I had the car and they were absolutely stellar on the street and track.
Winter time, due to it being RWD, I switched to Bridgestone Blizzaks and it was like my car had AWD in the muck. One dry pavement when it warmed up, they were soft as soup noodles and didn't handle worth a crap, but that wasn't their intention.
In the end, I have first hand experience with all-season vs. summer vs. winter tires and I can tell you, there is a pretty significant difference. If you want a high-performance car to work at it's best, get the best you can get. They don't put all-season tires on Porsche's, Ferrari's, Lamborghini's and Corvette's for a reason.
I have extensive experience between high-performance tires, all-season and dedicated snow tires on the same vehicle.
Vehicle 1: 2012 BMW X3 (wife's car)
We started out on the Bridgestone all-season tires that came on it stock. They were okay in terms of grip, noise and all around driveability in all weather conditions. Water evac was okay, not the best.
Then, I got her a set of Advan T5 wheels in 19x8.5 and put Conti DW performance high performance summer tires in 245/45. The road feel was much better and the propensity to hydroplane was greatly reduced. Overall, the feeling was much more sure footed. Oh, and the wheel/tire combination is 17lbs. per corner lighter with this setup. Yes, the stock X3 and non-runflat tires weigh a ton.
When the stock tires gave up, I put Michelin X-Ice Xi3 snow tires on. This tire is unbelievable in all types of conditions. I feel it's more of a hybrid rather than a true snow tire as in "normal" driving conditions where there isn't any snow and ice, the tires do fine. They are a bit soft, but perfectly acceptable. When the snow falls and it's really cold is where they are fantastic compared to the all-season. They cut through the muck so much quicker and easier to give you a better road feel and more confidence in the drive.
The Conti DW's wore out, so I wanted to get something that could overlap the winter months a bit easier than a true summer, high performance tire, so I listened to all those people saying that all-seasons are REALLY good now and you don't need a high performance tire. DON'T BELIEVE IT! I now have the Michelin Pilot A/S 3+ on her Advan T5 wheels. Compared to the Conti DW, they suck. There is no where near the feeling in the steering wheel as the DW's had. The grip is not as good (the sidewall is softer for sure) and the resistance to hydroplaning is not as good either. Overall, it's a definite step down. I wish I would have gotten either the Conti SportContact or another high performance summer tire to get the most out of the larger wheel/tire combination. I personally driver her car quite a bit and there is something lacking from the driving experience.
Vehicle 2: 2015 GTI (my car)
Stock it came with the Pirelli all-season tires. Okay, I guess when my car was stock, but once it was tuned, terrible. No traction whatsoever in the dry and the rain/snow was worse.
I got my aftermarket wheels (first Volk RE30 Clubsports then Volk TE37SL) and went to a 245/40R17 in Michelin PSS. Yes, this was a major difference! Wet or dry, they are night and day better than any all-season I've had on the car (and I'm comparing to the latest Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ that I have in stock size now for the winter.
Winter, I put all-season tires on as I wanted the option to run these longer than a dedicated snow tire like my wife's X3 has. Again, I went by what everyone else was saying to run the all-season tires. What a mistake! The grip in the slush and snow is horrible. Steering response is horrible and doesn't cut through the snow the way it needs to. I'm very disappointed! I will be getting a dedicated snow tire the next time. In the dry/warmer weather, the all-seasons are fine. They are an improvement over the stock Pirelli's for sure, but they are not even close to the Michelin PSS I have for the summer. I can't imagine the difference with the new PS4S that are probably going on my car next.
Vehicle 3: 2006 BMW 330i (previous car)
The stock Bridgestone RFTs where absolute crap!
I changed to wider Michelin PSS over the last few years that I had the car and they were absolutely stellar on the street and track.
Winter time, due to it being RWD, I switched to Bridgestone Blizzaks and it was like my car had AWD in the muck. One dry pavement when it warmed up, they were soft as soup noodles and didn't handle worth a crap, but that wasn't their intention.
In the end, I have first hand experience with all-season vs. summer vs. winter tires and I can tell you, there is a pretty significant difference. If you want a high-performance car to work at it's best, get the best you can get. They don't put all-season tires on Porsche's, Ferrari's, Lamborghini's and Corvette's for a reason.
DiscusInferno
Go Kart Newbie
- Location
- Kalifornia
If you're looking for a budget tire, that is not made in China....
https://simpletire.com/nokian-p225-40r18-t430070-tires
Yes, Nokian makes and sells all-season tires, for US and Canada only. These would be made with Russia Collusion, until Nokian gets the US plant up and running.
I wouldn't run these in the snow though. Not enough siping for my comfort zone. The tire tread design is clearly more on the dry grip side. I've done a cross country trip with them and driven through torrential rain storms where my speed was limited by not the tires, but the windshield wipers.
Rumor has it, Lime Rock uses these on their Miata's trainer cars, as it offers the grip of the summer tires (Nokian Z-line), but with more life out of them.
https://www.nokiantires.com/all-season-tires/nokian-zline-a-s/
https://simpletire.com/nokian-p225-40r18-t430070-tires
Yes, Nokian makes and sells all-season tires, for US and Canada only. These would be made with Russia Collusion, until Nokian gets the US plant up and running.
I wouldn't run these in the snow though. Not enough siping for my comfort zone. The tire tread design is clearly more on the dry grip side. I've done a cross country trip with them and driven through torrential rain storms where my speed was limited by not the tires, but the windshield wipers.
Rumor has it, Lime Rock uses these on their Miata's trainer cars, as it offers the grip of the summer tires (Nokian Z-line), but with more life out of them.
https://www.nokiantires.com/all-season-tires/nokian-zline-a-s/
2015WhiteGTI
Go Kart Champion
- Location
- Chester Springs, PA
FWIW: Racing schools cost a ton of money to run. It's in their best interest to run the consumables at the lowest possible price, i.e. tires.
If they run these tires, it causes students to really be technically correct when they brake and accelerate and not to overdrive the car so the tire doesn't heat up and get too greasy.
When I got my SCCA license, we used F2000 cars (Bertil Roos). They ran Cooper high performance tires because they said they were more progressive at breakaway than an R-comp. Plus, the F2000 was light enough that you didn't get them greasy anyway. I spoke to them after the school and they agreed completely that they lasted longer and were much cheaper to run than a big brand, high-performance or R-comp tire.
DiscusInferno
Go Kart Newbie
- Location
- Kalifornia
If they were really cheapening out on tires, they would be using cheap no-name tires with super high treadlife. But handling on them would mean that the value of the education comes degraded. Likewise, high traction tires can overcome many mistakes that people can make. So, it is a balance of characteristics they desire to maximize the education value from the desired handling of the tire. Likewise, brakes, they could cheap out on them and put long wearing brakes that may have a lower DOT pad codes, but more people will crash costing them more money, and lowering the education value.
Interesting fact, The BRZ/FT-86 gets Prius Summer tires, Michelin Primacy HP. When people think summer tires, they think tires like Michelin Pilot Super Sports, Continental ContiSports, etc. The Primacy HP summer tire is not one of them, it is a comfortable tire with lower levels of grip. The suspension engineer chose the Primacy HP due to its lower levels of grip and tuned the suspension around it. He could have chosen the Michelin PSS and wow the magazine racers.
sectachrome
Passed Driver's Ed
- Location
- Westminster, CO
The reason is that people who own those cars have another car that probably has all seasons on it that they drive in bad weather.
A GTI is literally the car version of an all season tire. Don't get one! Just get a Boxster and a Jeep instead. That would be nice, but not everyone is able/wants to buy and store 2 cars.
No it's not. The only reason so called all season tires were invented was so that U.S. auto makers didn't have to deal with Winter tires for geographical areas of the country that got ice and snow in the Winter time. By any metric all season tires provide less traction in both Summer and Winter than dedicated seasonal tires. Thus all season tires are not the best choice for any season which is why they are referred to by some as NO season tires.
In Germany you use Summer tires in the Summer and Winter tires in the Winter or you get a traffic ticket in the Winter time if you get stuck. You also get a traffic ticket if you run out of fuel on the A-Bahn. They actually hold driver's responsible for their actions in Germany...
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The bolded part is categorically false. If it makes you feel better to keep repeating it though, go ahead.
The best UHP tires outperform many summer tires, including some that are often recommended here--and they can be used in all conditions except bad snow. The data is out there, but you can choose to ignore it if you like.
I have dedicated winter tires. I still use a UHP A/S tire the rest of the time, because they perform better at lower temperatures (not snow), and better than a lot of summer tires in warmer temps.
Look at the all season tire performance on ice compared to dedicated Winter tires at Tire Rack and you'll see that one's life can easily depend on the difference in stopping distance. Tire Rack says all season tires have improved some what for Winter use but they are no comparison to dedicated Winter tires.
There is simply no way an all season tire performs as well as a top rated dedicated Max or Extreme Summer tire or Winter tire and TR's test results confirm this. Obviously if you try to skew the data by comparing the best all season against an average Summer tire then you might find the all season as good but it will never be as good as the Max or Extreme performance Summer tire nor the top of the line Winter tires.
As I originally posted people should do whatever works for them. The fact is NO season tires are just that. They aren't the best tire for any season. All season tires may be good enough for some folks and that's perfectly fine but there is a considerable difference in tire performance when it counts most and the test data proves it.
There is simply no way an all season tire performs as well as a top rated dedicated Max or Extreme Summer tire or Winter tire and TR's test results confirm this. Obviously if you try to skew the data by comparing the best all season against an average Summer tire then you might find the all season as good but it will never be as good as the Max or Extreme performance Summer tire nor the top of the line Winter tires.
As I originally posted people should do whatever works for them. The fact is NO season tires are just that. They aren't the best tire for any season. All season tires may be good enough for some folks and that's perfectly fine but there is a considerable difference in tire performance when it counts most and the test data proves it.
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2015WhiteGTI
Go Kart Champion
- Location
- Chester Springs, PA
I agree with the tires they're using for Skip Barber, but not many people have heard of this tire brand either. I can't for the life of me find anything about the tires they use on their website or any other for that matter.
You can never cheap out on brakes - ever.
I was at Lime Rock for the BMWCCA event a few years back and they had a Teen Driving School in the upper parking lot. One of the kids mistook the gas pedal for the brake and floored it, just missing a tree and hitting the house that's up there. I never saw anything cleaned up so quickly in all my life! No one was injured luckily.
The BRZ/86 needed to have those crappy, no grip tires in order to let the car actually slide and oversteer LOL! You can fit a 265/35R18 on those cars stock. With those sized tires on the car, it would never slide.
I'm not trying to skew the data. I agree completely that the the best UHP A/S tires will not equal *the best* Max Performance Summers. Question: when was the last time someone referred the forum boner tire, the Firehawk 500, as a "no season" tire? Answer: never. It's oft recommended, but it roughly the same as the best UPH tires, and worse in the dry. It's TR's #1 rated UHP summer tire, so I'd hardly say that's "cherry picking"?
I'm not knocking those tires! They have other benefits, namely they're a great value. But--as I said in my first post on the subject--if you're not going with one of the top performing Max Performance summer tires, the best UPH A/S tires offer a lot of advantages. And they're certainly not "no season"--which is just nonsense.
Shane_Anigans
Drag Race Newbie
- Location
- SE MI
- Car(s)
- 2017 GTI Sport DSG
Everyone in the A/S fan club keeps saying that same thing over and over again, yet there's never anything to back it up.
Except there's this, straight from Continental's website (see "what you should know about all-season tires"):
And also these useful quotes from the Bridgestone website:
"An all-season tire offers a balance of capabilities, providing acceptable performance in wet and dry conditions, as well as traction in snow."
"All-season tires perform well in warm weather, but they may offer less grip than summer tires, sacrificing some steering, braking, and cornering capabilities. This trade off is necessary for all-season tires to be able to provide acceptable performance in light winter conditions and provide longer tread life."
Maybe it's just me, but when I see words like "acceptable" and "trade off," I have to think: are those the sort of words that apply to me, as a car enthusiast? Or do they better describe my neighbors, who drive an Altima and a Fusion? A Golf would be adequate transportation for most people, but for me, the GTI was the only real choice. Why they fitted it with A/S tires is beyond me, because its a car that deserves proper summer tires, which provide a level of performance that the compromise rubber compounds and tread designs of A/S tires simply cannot match.
If it were possible to make A/S tires that performed as well as proper summer tires, why do tire manufacturers continue to make both types? They could save a lot of development and production costs by making a tire that covers the upper end of the A/S performance spectrum and the lower/middle part of the summer spectrum, and call it a day.
As I have pointed out numerous times the traction of the best all season tire is lower than a top Max or Extreme Summer tire and dramatically lower than a dedicated top rated Winter tire. Why would someone buy a second set of wheels and then use average performance Summer and Winter tires?
Most enthusiasts would buy a top rated Summer and a top rated Winter tire or they'd skip the second set of wheels and buy lower performing all season tires which by actual test results have lower traction compared to the top seasonal tires. That is why all season tires are known as NO season tires - because they are not the best tire for any season. The advantages to a NO season tire is that you can leave them on year round, you save money over two sets of tires/wheels and you don't need to change them based on the season. If that is more important than dry, wet, ice and snow traction and the significant improvement in Winter safety then all season tires are what people should buy.
My life is more than worth the cost of the best tires for the season and the best tires greatly enhance the driving experience. I watch people crash their vehicles every Winter with all season tires when they can't stop or turn on packed snow/ice. It's idiotic and endangers other motorists and pedestrians. That's why in Germany it's mandatory to install Winter tires.
Most enthusiasts would buy a top rated Summer and a top rated Winter tire or they'd skip the second set of wheels and buy lower performing all season tires which by actual test results have lower traction compared to the top seasonal tires. That is why all season tires are known as NO season tires - because they are not the best tire for any season. The advantages to a NO season tire is that you can leave them on year round, you save money over two sets of tires/wheels and you don't need to change them based on the season. If that is more important than dry, wet, ice and snow traction and the significant improvement in Winter safety then all season tires are what people should buy.
My life is more than worth the cost of the best tires for the season and the best tires greatly enhance the driving experience. I watch people crash their vehicles every Winter with all season tires when they can't stop or turn on packed snow/ice. It's idiotic and endangers other motorists and pedestrians. That's why in Germany it's mandatory to install Winter tires.
Exactly.
What on earth are you talking about?
For the millionth time, just go look at the independents test results on Tire Rack for UHP summer tires and the AS3+. I've linked it before, you can find out on your own... The data are pretty clear... The best UHP A/S tires are equal to or better than most UHP summers. Or, you can rely on marketing materials designed to sell summer tires. Your choice.