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If you knew your car was TD1...

Twist1

Autocross Newbie
He yakked about something, but it was meaningless.

Nobody at the dealership can "TD1 it". All they can do is perform a scan and send the results back to VW.

But of course, that was going to happen *anyway* should you present with a powertrain warranty claim.

So in effect, he was just motoring his mouth off for the sake of motoring his mouth off. He wasted his breath.

If you're thinking that you didn't have a tune BUT this guy was going to "TD1 it" to try to fuck you because he's a dick, that can't happen.



I think you are right. As I have a buddy who works at that dealership that is known for being quite non-tune friendly and asked about it and he said basically what's being told here. However he also pointed out that the td1 flag will show up on everything, anything relating to your car and their system.
 

cb1111

Newbie
Location
Virginia, USA
I think you are right. As I have a buddy who works at that dealership that is known for being quite non-tune friendly and asked about it and he said basically what's being told here. However he also pointed out that the td1 flag will show up on everything, anything relating to your car and their system.
What does this mean?

A TD1 entry in the VW computer means one thing only - the computer has detected that the ECU has been modified by someone other than VW.

It doesn't mean "we found a sticker, piggyback, CAI, neon underbody lights or a tree air freshener" - those are identified with other codes.
 

Wrath And Tears

Go Kart Champion
Location
Azusa, CA
Car(s)
17 Sport, 99 E36
What does this mean?

A TD1 entry in the VW computer means one thing only - the computer has detected that the ECU has been modified by someone other than VW.

It doesn't mean "we found a sticker, piggyback, CAI, neon underbody lights or a tree air freshener" - those are identified with other codes.

Correct, the flag for a TCU tune is called TG1.
 

Twist1

Autocross Newbie
What does this mean?

A TD1 entry in the VW computer means one thing only - the computer has detected that the ECU has been modified by someone other than VW.

It doesn't mean "we found a sticker, piggyback, CAI, neon underbody lights or a tree air freshener" - those are identified with other codes.[

As in, the td1 flag does not go away as long as the car vin exists. It's not singular, not dissociated from other vw services or only applies to that one time the code was read. It is a flag
 

kevinkar

Drag Racing Champion
Location
United States
It's items like this that bug me and have caused me issues on my Corvette:



A short shifter does nothing but modify the rotation point of the shifter to the ball cup in the shifter box. The rod attached to the transmission doesn't change one iota, only the geometry between the shift cup and my hand. Yet GM refused a warranty repair on my transmission due to my replacing the crappy OEM shifter with an after market one which worked much better. That "warranty key" was added to my car's "permanent record."

Basically they said the issue in the transaxle was a known problem with a service bulletin to address it but since I changed the shifter they were not going to fix it. End of story.

Not a TD1 like this discussion but enough to have me pay for repairs that were GM's fault.

So you never know how dickish the dealer or manufacturer will be.
 

Twist1

Autocross Newbie
You would think these big companies would start to wise up as tuning becomes easier, safer and more reliable. There could be a lot of money made if a few tuning alliances were made. Ex: a club sport golf package with APR plus hardware and software, etc.
 

cb1111

Newbie
Location
Virginia, USA
It's items like this that bug me and have caused me issues on my Corvette:



A short shifter does nothing but modify the rotation point of the shifter to the ball cup in the shifter box. The rod attached to the transmission doesn't change one iota, only the geometry between the shift cup and my hand. Yet GM refused a warranty repair on my transmission due to my replacing the crappy OEM shifter with an after market one which worked much better. That "warranty key" was added to my car's "permanent record."

Basically they said the issue in the transaxle was a known problem with a service bulletin to address it but since I changed the shifter they were not going to fix it. End of story.

Not a TD1 like this discussion but enough to have me pay for repairs that were GM's fault.

So you never know how dickish the dealer or manufacturer will be.
Just to play devil's advocate, a short shifter adds additional stress and has been discussed ad-nauseam on virtually every forum. Here is an example.

Since virtually all manufacturers have specifically identified short shifters as causing warranty woes you take your chances when you install one.
 

kevinkar

Drag Racing Champion
Location
United States
Since virtually all manufacturers have specifically identified short shifters as causing warranty woes you take your chances when you install one.
Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 and the additional FTC Consumer Alert from 2010 the manufacturer can't deny warranty coverage due to addition of aftermarket parts unless they can prove that part caused the damage.

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2011/01/ftc-validates-right-to-install-aftermarket-parts

That being said, I have no doubt the dealer and manufacturer will go out of their way to screw the consumer if possible. However, having a problem on a car which exists in STOCK form with OEM parts means an aftermarket short shifter is likely to not be the cause of the issue and probably can be argued successfully in court.
 

cb1111

Newbie
Location
Virginia, USA
Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 and the additional FTC Consumer Alert from 2010 the manufacturer can't deny warranty coverage due to addition of aftermarket parts unless they can prove that part caused the damage.

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2011/01/ftc-validates-right-to-install-aftermarket-parts

That being said, I have no doubt the dealer and manufacturer will go out of their way to screw the consumer if possible. However, having a problem on a car which exists in STOCK form with OEM parts means an aftermarket short shifter is likely to not be the cause of the issue and probably can be argued successfully in court.
Sigh.... I posted this about 8 years ago on the BMW forum.
______________________
Let me try to explain mods and warranties in logical layman's term. I'm sure that some will come up with all sorts of nebulous arguments but they are not real world.

1. The oft misquoted MM act has nothing to do with performance parts. It was enacted to keep manufacturers from requiring the use of a specific brand of replacement part in order to keep the warranty intact.

Accordingly, the use of a "substantially similar" replacement is OK and the manufacturer must show that the "substantially similar" part caused the failure if they refuse warranty service for that failure.

In practical terms, this means that you can substitute a Osram H7 bulb for the Bosch H7 that the car originally came with.

2. Let's look at performance parts for a moment. By definition, performance parts are not "substantially similar" as they are intended to alter the performance characteristics of a system. Based upon this, performance parts fall outside the scope of the MM act.

In order to refuse warranty service for a failure, the manufacturer (legally) merely needs to show that a part that is not "substantially similar" was used and that this part could have caused the failure. At this point, the burden of proof shifts to the consumer to prove that the part did not cause the failure.

Going back to out lightbulb example, if you have an electrical failure and you've replaced your 55w bulbs with 85w "hyperwhites" or LED's then the dealer is under an obligation to the manufacturer to refuse warranty service on the failure if they believe that the performance bulbs caused the failure.

Simple - right?

Now, let's talk warranty a moment.

3. The term "void the warranty" is often bandied about by both consumers and dealers alike.

Very few things will actually "void the warranty." This was alluded to by other posters but not fully explained. If a car is so badly abused, or modded to the point where virtually every system failure can be traced back to a mod, then the manufacturer can "void the warranty." A flood damaged car or one that was in a severe accident might also be candidates for the manufacturer to void the warranty on the entire car.

Mitsubishi voided the warranty on a bunch of cars that they saw were used at racetracks.

What is commonly referred to as "voiding the warranty" actually refers to a dealer refusing warranty service on a particular service.

Quite simply, if a dealer believes that a modification, chip, performance part, abuse or whatnot caused (or substantially contributed) to a failure, then he has an obligation to the manufacturer to refuse warranty service on that failure.

Accordingly, using our lighting example again, the dealer could refuse warranty service on any electrical failure. This could actually extend to ECUs or the entire electrical system.

Farfetched? Not really. A few years back a guy on VWVortex decided to paint his sidemarker bulbs silver on his brand new Jetta.

The bulb heated up, melted the paint and dripped into the housing. The housing melted and shorted out parts of the wiring loom. Since the Jetta uses a CAN-BUS, the whole thing needed replacement $2500 later the car was on the road again.

4. Why doesn't the dealer give the customer the benefit of the doubt? The manufacturer often asks for parts back to determine the cause of the failure. They are extremely vigilant for failures that often are seen on modded cars.

Fell free to argue until you're blue in the face - but - like it or not, the above is the way it is.

You can always find a lawyer who will argue a different viewpoint, but that doesn't mean it is right.

So, what is the bottom line?

ANY mod may cause warranty woes. Consider ALL the implications of any mod you are contemplating and be mentally and monetarily prepared to pay for the consequences.

Read your owner's manual carefully. It specifically warns against engine (ECU) and suspension mods as examples of mods that will cause problems.

Feel free to mod away, but remember that you might have to pay to play. The other posters who say "just do it" aren't the ones that will have to foot the bill.

As a clarification - there is some heated discussion about the manufacturer's burden of proof regarding the use of "performance parts" but the bottom line remains the same.

In addition, if the manufacturer allows a case to go to court then there is a good bet that he has sufficient evidence to back up their claim.
________________________________ and here is the entire thread
 

imthanick_a

Autocross Champion
Location
Ohio
How are we supposed to know you posted this in a BMW forum 8 years ago?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

cb1111

Newbie
Location
Virginia, USA
How are we supposed to know you posted this in a BMW forum 8 years ago?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Click on the link at the end of my post. It takes you to the thread on the BMW forum. I think my post is somewhere around 80 or so.

Really immaterial when it was posted. What IS important is that if you know that a manufacturer has warned against a mod, then you are poking them in the eye by doing that mod and going in for warranty service.

Assuming for a moment that you have a warranty denial for a replacement part that would normally be covered by the MM act. The feds aren't going to come riding in on white horses to beat up the dealer for you. If your logical argument doesn't prevail, then your car sits there rotting while your lawyers fight it out - or you pay for the repair.

In the case of Kevin's link, you need to recognize the source - SEMA will try to convince people that aftermarket stuff is always the right thing to use.

Quite frankly, the MM act was designed (102(c)) to prohibit tie-in sales. This was prompted by a vacuum cleaner manufacturer who required the use of their vacuum cleaner bags and in-house maintenance in order to keep the warranty intact.

In short, the act says that you can use use like replacement parts from another manufacturer and that you can get maintenance done anywhere.

The act further allows a manufacturer to set specifications for replacement parts (for cars, fluids, filters and the like) and to lay out a required maintenance schedule.

A manufacturer may recommend the use of certain brands or service centers.
 

adam1991

Banned
Location
USA
Very well done - where's the "like" button on this forum? :cool:

Agreed.

But no doubt, the armchair "lawyers" here will argue this to death, because they so badly want to BELIEVE.

I want just one of those armchair lawyers to build something and sell it on the open market to end users.
 

16gtiguy

Ready to race!
Location
Oahu, HI
If you knew your car was TD1 flagged, would you be more likely to mod or less? Why? (Assuming it was TD1ed for something minor like an intake...)

Seeing as how we have covered the falsehood of the TD1 statement I will answer the actual questions.

If you are every worried about your warranty then you should not mod period. If you bought a used car and found out it was TD1 after the purchase then I think more people would be more likely to mod as their is no powertrain warranty anyway. As for me I bought the car new and went Stage 2 before the ink dried on my paperwork, but then again I can afford the risk.
 
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