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Will I hate a manual?

pnwbrdr

Ready to race!
Location
WA
On a race track you drive a DSG using the paddles, selecting shift points to suit the demands of the track much as you would with a manual. You would never want to use automatic mode. But it’s still easier to drive fast, partly because DSG allows you to shift anywhere you want, even mid-corner, without penalty. Data acquisition shows that each upshift costs about a half second with a manual, compared to nothing with the DSG.

But there’s also a weight penalty with the DSG, reportedly around 60 lb (anyone got a real number?), and even worse for a FWD car, it’s all up front, right where you don’t want it. My bet is that if there’s a lap time advantage for the manual version, it’s due to the added ballast.

For RWD cars like BMW’s M2, the manual version is definitely slower on track.

Neil
Could be due to the weight, but it doesn't matter... VW and their race car driver clearly thought there was an advantage to a 6mt to get better lap times...

Shifting mid-turn is just poor driving, let's not reinforce that habit... ;)

Gear shift duration matters a whole lot less when doing anything other than stoplight racing. Coming into a turn, gears should be selected while decelerating, so there's no advantage there. The faster upshift after coming out of the turn will help, but only if there's a huge straight in front of you where a shift is actually needed. Longer gearing in a 6mt vs 7dsg might mean that the 6mt can stay in gear until the next turn... like how in autox, mt drivers often pick the right gear and stay in it, not constantly shifting gears...
 

Cliff

Go Kart Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Golf R
Gear shift duration matters a whole lot less when doing anything other than stoplight racing. Coming into a turn, gears should be selected while decelerating, so there's no advantage there. The faster upshift after coming out of the turn will help, but only if there's a huge straight in front of you where a shift is actually needed. Longer gearing in a 6mt vs 7dsg might mean that the 6mt can stay in gear until the next turn... like how in autox, mt drivers often pick the right gear and stay in it, not constantly shifting gears...
Shifts are basically free with a DSG and that gives the driver more flexibility. For example, T11 at Laguna Seca and Off Ramp at Buttonwillow are both very slow turns. I can simply pull a paddle to downshift into 2nd for those turns. That allows me to keep the revs up and the turbo spooled so that I come out of those turns with a speed advantage over a car that has remained in 3rd due to the tradeoff between the time it takes to downshift versus the added exit speed making the shift not worth it.

In terms of higher gears, I don't recall the last time I shifted past 5th gear on a road course in my car. Now a 7 speed tops out about 130 in 5th versus 137 for my 6 speed, and the only time I came close to that speed was on the Fontana Roval (edit: I'll come close the next time I am at the Ridge too, assuming it's not raining). You're likely to need a stage 3 car for top end gearing to be much of a concern.

For autocross, I typically remain in 2nd. However, there have been occasions on a fast course where I can exceed the 58mph max speed in 2nd. If I had a manual, the cost of the shift and subsequent downshift would not be worth a brief moment in 3rd and I'd just let the car bounce off the rev limited. But with DSG shifts are free for the taking.
 

It's Sam

Go Kart Newbie
Location
New York (The cool part)
Car(s)
2017 GTI SE
Hi, OP here with an update.

For one, I went with a GTI over an R for a few reasons, availability being the main (and price a close second), but I'm sticking with the DSG this time. There were a lot of nice manuals in the area, but all of the input here, combined with the good memories I had of my DSG, I felt like it was better to go this route.

Thank you for all of the input. Especially as it can help others answer this question for themselves in the future.

Picking up the car tonight and looking forward to the DSG farts on the way home...

I'm using Tapatalk.
 

pnwbrdr

Ready to race!
Location
WA
Shifts are basically free with a DSG and that gives the driver more flexibility. For example, T11 at Laguna Seca and Off Ramp at Buttonwillow are both very slow turns. I can simply pull a paddle to downshift into 2nd for those turns. That allows me to keep the revs up and the turbo spooled so that I come out of those turns with a speed advantage over a car that has remained in 3rd due to the tradeoff between the time it takes to downshift versus the added exit speed making the shift not worth it.

In terms of higher gears, I don't recall the last time I shifted past 5th gear on a road course in my car. Now a 7 speed tops out about 130 in 5th versus 137 for my 6 speed, and the only time I came close to that speed was on the Fontana Roval (edit: I'll come close the next time I am at the Ridge too, assuming it's not raining). You're likely to need a stage 3 car for top end gearing to be much of a concern.

For autocross, I typically remain in 2nd. However, there have been occasions on a fast course where I can exceed the 58mph max speed in 2nd. If I had a manual, the cost of the shift and subsequent downshift would not be worth a brief moment in 3rd and I'd just let the car bounce off the rev limited. But with DSG shifts are free for the taking.
As far as the gearing goes... I was more referring to top speed per gear... I have not seen a comparison between the 6mt and the 7dsg, but usually once you start adding gears, they start spacing things out - ie top speed for each gear goes down - meaning more shifts.

Totally get it with the "free shifts", but downshifting while braking can be handled pretty easily with a manual
 

Cliff

Go Kart Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Golf R
As far as the gearing goes... I was more referring to top speed per gear... I have not seen a comparison between the 6mt and the 7dsg, but usually once you start adding gears, they start spacing things out - ie top speed for each gear goes down - meaning more shifts.

Totally get it with the "free shifts", but downshifting while braking can be handled pretty easily with a manual
My 3 pedal friends remain in a higher gear than I do in certain situations because downshifting takes time.

I have only encountered the 2 tracks that I mentioned where the straights are long enough to threaten the rev limiter in 5th. Top speed in the higher gears is generally not a concern for HPDE drivers. If you're racing and the class rules allow you to change gearing then you will do whatever is required to be competitive.

I constructed gearing calculators in Excel way back when and have attached a screencap of a version comparing the 6 speed and 7 speed DSG. Speeds are dependent on tire size, so I plugged in the OE size. The 7 speed would be massively annoying for autocross, but fortunately I don't have one.
 

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olds350

Passed Driver's Ed
My 3 pedal friends remain in a higher gear than I do in certain situations because downshifting takes time.

I have only encountered the 2 tracks that I mentioned where the straights are long enough to threaten the rev limiter in 5th. Top speed in the higher gears is generally not a concern for HPDE drivers. If you're racing and the class rules allow you to change gearing then you will do whatever is required to be competitive.

I constructed gearing calculators in Excel way back when and have attached a screencap of a version comparing the 6 speed and 7 speed DSG. Speeds are dependent on tire size, so I plugged in the OE size. The 7 speed would be massively annoying for autocross, but fortunately I don't have one.

Do you know the gearing for the 6 spd manual? Be interesting to see the diff to the 7spd DSG
 

olds350

Passed Driver's Ed
Not on the same document, no. But I was curious to compare the 6MT gearing with the DSG when detailed specifications for the 2016's were released.

I found the gear ratios and that's pretty much spot on to what I figured. Gotta tell you I'm curious about 4th/5th gear numbers, don't make sense, 5th gear goes back up? The other webpage I found has the same gearing numbers. That would mean a shift from 4th to 5th would make the revs go up, which it doesn't. Think there's a misprint somewhere, unless the final drive comes into play.


How does that work work there are 2 final drive values; final 1 = 4.24, final 2 = 3.27? Someone needs to educate me on how this works...
 

Cliff

Go Kart Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Golf R
I found the gear ratios and that's pretty much spot on to what I figured. Gotta tell you I'm curious about 4th/5th gear numbers, don't make sense, 5th gear goes back up? The other webpage I found has the same gearing numbers. That would mean a shift from 4th to 5th would make the revs go up, which it doesn't. Think there's a misprint somewhere, unless the final drive comes into play.


How does that work work there are 2 final drive values; final 1 = 4.24, final 2 = 3.27? Someone needs to educate me on how this works...
5th and 6th use the lower numeric final drive number. It's an overdrive for fuel economy. You can see the final drive change reflected in the speeds in gear.
 

Cliff

Go Kart Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Golf R
So how does it work? What changes and where?
If you are talking about physical location in the car, the differential and final drive is inside the transmission housing for both the DSG and manual transmissions. The chart shows the final drive gearing associated with 5th and 6th gears in the column header while the rows show the car's speed for the engine speed shown in the row header.
 
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