where to stiffen a GTI?

[TheJokker]

As the car has to stay close to stock, you think if allowed they would not have lowered it an inch, upgraded sway bars, added aluminum control arms, better engine mounts, etc, etc?
I think they would.
So we should also.

Take a look at the cars the Clubsport S beat or was close to. There are some pretty high end cars in the list.

Lowering the car even an inch is going to change the suspensions geometry moving it from optimum. Unless you change other parts to restore the proper geometry you would be better off leaving it alone. Likewise with the LSD the car is pretty close to neutral. A neutral steering car is more predictable than an over-steering car and can be driven with more confidence.

My point is if you want the ultimate GTI there is a proven blueprint to follow. If the Clubsport S doesn't have it than you don't need it.

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

Take a look at the cars the Clubsport S beat or was close to. There are some pretty high end cars in the list.

Lowering the car even an inch is going to change the suspensions geometry moving it from optimum. Unless you change other parts to restore the proper geometry you would be better off leaving it alone. Likewise with the LSD the car is pretty close to neutral. A neutral steering car is more predictable than an over-steering car and can be driven with more confidence.

My point is if you want the ultimate GTI there is a proven blueprint to follow. If the Clubsport S doesn't have it than you don't need it.

Although it’s light years ahead of front wheel drive cars from the ‘90s and early 2000’s in terms of being more neutral, from my experience, the MK7 defaults to plowing when pushed to its limit. With some mild upgrades, it plows less and can be coaxed to rotate more easily.

 

[sandmangti]

Take a look at the cars the Clubsport S beat or was close to. There are some pretty high end cars in the list.

Lowering the car even an inch is going to change the suspensions geometry moving it from optimum. Unless you change other parts to restore the proper geometry you would be better off leaving it alone. Likewise with the LSD the car is pretty close to neutral. A neutral steering car is more predictable than an over-steering car and can be driven with more confidence.

My point is if you want the ultimate GTI there is a proven blueprint to follow. If the Clubsport S doesn't have it than you don't need it.

What if I just want to look cool?

Understand and agree on your points, but still feel if they could do what they want, changes would be made. Design of a production car I’m sure is a series of compromises.

 

[KevinC]

What if I just want to look cool?

 

[TheJokker]

Although it’s light years ahead of front wheel drive cars from the ‘90s and early 2000’s in terms of being more neutral, from my experience, the MK7 defaults to plowing when pushed to its limit. With some mild upgrades, it plows less and can be coaxed to rotate more easily.

The drivers at Nürburgring would disagree with you. To reduce plowing upgrade the driver.

What if I just want to look cool?

Understand and agree on your points, but still feel if they could do what they want, changes would be made. Design of a production car I’m sure is a series of compromises.

I have no issues with people who want a cool looking car but their priorities are different from making their cars perform better.

Here is a list of the cars below the GTI Clubsport S (note the list is as of 2016 and has changed):

Porsche 911 GT3 RS
BMW M3 GTS
Alpina B3 GT3
Lamborghini Murcielago
BMW M3 CSL
Porsche 911 Carrera S
Honda Civic Type R
Mercedes SL65 AMG Black Series
Jaguar XKR-S
Volvo S60 Polestar
Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio
BMW M4
Lamborghini Gallardo
Ford GT
Porsche Panamera Turbos S
Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4
Mercedes CLK DTM
Porsche 911 GT3
Renault Megane RS 275 Trophy-R
Ferrari F430

From my understanding the Clubsport S was essentially a GTI with no backseat and the R Engine and turbo. The GTI is not limited by it's suspension but by the driver...

 

[KevinC]

The GTI is not limited by it's suspension but by the driver...

I get your point, and I'm one of the first guys responding to newbies wanting to know where to throw money at their new GTI first, by suggesting that they attend a HPDE and get some instruction. But..

Wouldn't your assertion also apply to all the cars below the Clubsport, thus kinda undermining your point? Or were these tests all conducted with the same driver?

 

[El_bigote_AJ]

Your understanding is wrong...the club sport is indeed upgraded from a standard gti...club sport has the ability to have more negative camber than standard. The Clubsport S has different spring rates (possibly lower lengths as well), the club sport has the alum. Sub frame that’s found In the S3, it’s got a different sway bar than a standard GTI, also the rubber used In the Suspension bushing is that of a harder Durometer rating than a standard GTI

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

The drivers at Nürburgring would disagree with you. To reduce plowing upgrade the driver.

I have no issues with people who want a cool looking car but their priorities are different from making their cars perform better.

Here is a list of the cars below the GTI Clubsport S (note the list is as of 2016 and has changed):

My car isn’t a Clubsport S. It’s a daily driver that sees some track time. I’m making my statement based on how I’ve seen the car’s handling evolve a bit from stock to moderate suspension changes. It plows less, rotates more, is more neutral and natural to drive now.

 

[sprinks]

I think what Jokker is trying to get at is that the GTI is 90% the performance of the clubsport, and that it doesn't take much to approach that capability from a stock US spec GTI.

Everyone naming all the little ways the clubsport is different is showing the blueprint how a newcomer looking for guidance might change little parts to have a large change in performance. The golf r is38 turbo and tune to match, the biggest RSB VW had on the shelf for it, springs (golf r springs up front and a3 springs out back, to be exact), different subframe (aluminum s3 subframe for weight reduction and stiffness), rear seat delete (losing weight on a record car is a must, a streetable daily car, not so much and varies user to user), and camber are what made the record setting car what it was. To get all that may be out of the OP's budget though.

OP set a budget for yourself. Start filling in the budget based on the advice given in the thread. Most folks see the biggest change starting with an uprated rear sway bar. Springs help too. Stiffening the front or rear of the chassis via strut tower supports also isn't a bad thing.

 

[MeltedSolid]

The Clubsport S's suspension is extremely different than the regular GTI. It's lower, much stiffer rear, lighter, etc... I remember hearing a quote at one point that they spent a lot of time improving the rear spoiler so they could run a stiffer rear sway bar.

The mk7 can easily be made to handle fantastically. In my setup I have coilovers with extra stiff rear springs (BC's @ 7k F, 8k R), 25mm rear sway bar, stock front sway bar, and it oversteers like a madman. It's more tail happy than my e36 drift car, and if my mk7 were rwd it would be dangerous and undrivable the way its set up. I go back and forth between my car and my dad's 987 boxster, and both are fantastic in completely different ways, but I don't prefer one over the other.

 

[ElectricEye]

Remember, what's better on the track isn't necessarily better on the street.
On the street, with a lower and stiffer suspension - one might need to slow down (possible really slow down) for broken pavement, dips etc., where a car with a stock suspension can continue to carry on.

 

[sprinks]

i like when we have enumerated the exact differences in the clubsport, clubsport s, and the stock gti and then somebody comes and says it's all different. We know. We just listed all the specific differences.

 

[GTIfan99]

I'm on APR springs, H&R 26mm rear sway bar, and Eurosport Camber kit. Look up my review of the APR springs before you buy, they aren't exactly what APR portrays them as, but I still have grown to like them. Still a little too low for my tastes, but the performance trade off is worth it.

If I had it to do again, on my GTI, I'd do the same RSB and the camber kit, but I'd buy a cheap takeoff set of R springs (that's what the CSS uses) in order to keep the car a little higher for daily driving.

As far as bracing goes, the strut tops are so close to the firewall that I doubt a strut brace would do anything but add weight to a modern chassis like the MQB, and the ones I've seen aren't triangulated, so I wouldn't waste your money. The rear brace from Euro Sport has my attention though.

 

[GTIfan99]

The Clubsport S's suspension is extremely different than the regular GTI. It's lower, much stiffer rear, lighter, etc... I remember hearing a quote at one point that they spent a lot of time improving the rear spoiler so they could run a stiffer rear sway bar.

The mk7 can easily be made to handle fantastically. In my setup I have coilovers with extra stiff rear springs (BC's @ 7k F, 8k R), 25mm rear sway bar, stock front sway bar, and it oversteers like a madman. It's more tail happy than my e36 drift car, and if my mk7 were rwd it would be dangerous and undrivable the way its set up. I go back and forth between my car and my dad's 987 boxster, and both are fantastic in completely different ways, but I don't prefer one over the other.

What's your front and rear camber and toe? If you're car is tail happy, it's your probably your alignment. Also, tires play a huge role in balance. My RE71R's have slight oversteer and my FK510's have slight understeer in the same exact set up and alignment.

 

[MeltedSolid]

Front camber is -1.4, rear camber is -1.8. Zero toe front and rear. Tires are pilot super sports, also felt that way with HTR ZII's and on winter tires over this past winter. The setting on the shocks also has a lot to do with it, I can mostly balance it out by setting the rear shocks to low stiffness and front to medium-low, but it's far more fun to keep it a little tail happy .