What is your WOT timing running at?

[BravoMike]

I agree on the knock voltages, not knowing how to read them. I have seen as high as 1.5V on cylinders and various timing being pulled.

With these runs you were not pushing the pedal all the way, what was going on? Do you feel a difference in performance between part throttle and full throttle. Also, I see that you have timing being pulled but are you feeling the loss of performance or are you just looking to get every little bit of performance out of it. I ask because my car pulls harder at part throttle than full and I am still trying to figure out what it is.

Interesting that you mention this about your car pulling harder at partial throttle rather than full. I thought I was experiencing this as well. Tonight I was trying to see if I can replicate and it seems that 3/4 throttle pulls harder than full. I'm stock and this is based on how the car feels, so no data points.

 

[gn4rwhals]

Interesting that you mention this about your car pulling harder at partial throttle rather than full. I thought I was experiencing this as well. Tonight I was trying to see if I can replicate and it seems that 3/4 throttle pulls harder than full. I'm stock and this is based on how the car feels, so no data points.

I can also confirm that part throttle pulls way harder on my car as well, I also get no timing pull at part throttle in lower RPM situations.

Here is what I'm noticing:

The turbo seems to surge at full throttle (foot to floor) until 4k RPM, after 4k I noticed timing goes positive on my P3 and the car takes off like crazy.

If I go 75%-80% throttle until 4k then lay into it after 4k timing does not seem to get pulled and the car stays strong.

I am running a DV+ and I'm wondering if its holding boost too well, maybe the stock DV was designed to "leak" (open slightly) a bit of boost along with the wastegate to keep turbo pressure under control?

 

[BravoMike]

I'll go for a drive today and pay attention to my boost gauge to see if I notice anything.

 

[George Smooth]

I am running a DV+ and I'm wondering if its holding boost too well, maybe the stock DV was designed to "leak" (open slightly) a bit of boost along with the wastegate to keep turbo pressure under control?

On spool up the DV is pulsed by the ECU to maintain boost target. With the stiffer spring it may not be releasing as much as the car would want.
On the 7 the DV works in conjunction with the waist gate for boost control so its a very dynamic part of boost control.

I am doing a lower torque map now with more capping up to 3800rpm for the manual guys that want to use it so it will be good to experiment with it and see what changes in terms of spool timing.

 

[gn4rwhals]

On spool up the DV is pulsed by the ECU to maintain boost target. With the stiffer spring it may not be releasing as much as the car would want.
On the 7 the DV works in conjunction with the waist gate for boost control so its a very dynamic part of boost control.

I am doing a lower torque map now with more capping up to 3800rpm for the manual guys that want to use it so it will be good to experiment with it and see what changes in terms of spool timing.

George,

Send the map to me via email when you are done, I'll give it a test and log whatever you want to see via VAGCOM.

 

[WalterKohn]

On spool up the DV is pulsed by the ECU to maintain boost target. With the stiffer spring it may not be releasing as much as the car would want.
On the 7 the DV works in conjunction with the waist gate for boost control so its a very dynamic part of boost control.

I am doing a lower torque map now with more capping up to 3800rpm for the manual guys that want to use it so it will be good to experiment with it and see what changes in terms of spool timing.

I would like this map as well I am only running an intake would this be ok?

 

[George Smooth]

I would like this map as well I am only running an intake would this be ok?

Sure, as time passes we will develop several firmwares and put them up with different characteristics then users have the choice to use what is comfortable for them. They will all work regardless of mods.

 

[Radfox]

I am wondering if we are just hit too much boost at first spool up. I am seeing 2.8x max and my car doesn't seem to pul hard unless the boost is down near 2.4 bar. Holding your throttle at 3/4 is probably keeping you down below near 2.4?


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[gn4rwhals]

I am wondering if we are just hit too much boost at first spool up. I am seeing 2.8x max and my car doesn't seem to pul hard unless the boost is down near 2.4 bar. Holding your throttle at 3/4 is probably keeping you down below near 2.4?


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Do you hear the waste gate opening? Sounds like air getting let out a balloon rapidly.

ECU should control boost and I guess hold back power until it reaches a reading it can work with, I've noticed the spool up is pretty quick on this turbo.

 

[BravoMike]

I am wondering if we are just hit too much boost at first spool up. I am seeing 2.8x max and my car doesn't seem to pul hard unless the boost is down near 2.4 bar. Holding your throttle at 3/4 is probably keeping you down below near 2.4?


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Are you reading this off of VCDS? I assume you actually mean 1.4 bar which is about 20 PSI.

I've been put of town on family vacation with our kid mobile. Haven't had much of a chance to drive my car, but I did go on a quick drive to test this the night I last posted. I didn't get to play around with it as much as I would have liked to, but here's what I noticed.

Car seems to hit all of the pressures, just at a different rate with full throttle vs 3/4 throttle. The difference is that with 3/4 throttle, the boost builds slower than full throttle. This is off of a NewSouth mechanical boost gauge.

I haven't come to any real conclusion yet, but my initial thought is that we mustn't confuse acceleration and rate of acceleration. What I mean is that the rate at which the car is accelerating increases as torque builds and torque increases with increase in boost. The other thing to keep in mind is to keep shift points the same when doing this because torque starts dropping off after about ~5k RPM on a stock engine (according to dynos that I've looked up for stock engine).

 

[skian]

Below is what I logged the other day. Running JB1 at 5.0 over stock. The boost shown in the chart is from the ECU, so it doesn't take the JB1 into account. I'm using the REV app with the kiwi dongle so i can't get timing on each cylinder, only whats shown below. The car definitely pulled nice on this run, but i wonder if it could be better as it does show negative timing.

 

[toledospeed]

Below is what I logged the other day. Running JB1 at 5.0 over stock. The boost shown in the chart is from the ECU, so it doesn't take the JB1 into account. I'm using the REV app with the kiwi dongle so i can't get timing on each cylinder, only whats shown below. The car definitely pulled nice on this run, but i wonder if it could be better as it does show negative timing.

That is a pretty healthy boost spike @19.3 psi for a stock OBD reading with the Rev app. The stock GTI ECU boost targets are ~15 psi I believe. That would mean you are spiking to ~24.3 psi in the real world. I believe the Rev app automatically considers your altitude, correct? I don't recall seeing a GTI log with a spike quite that high for a stock car (not sure of your mods?). Since your timing is being pulled and your boost seems extra healthy, perhaps dial back the JB1 a tad, or increase octane if you can. If the car is pulling nicely and feels smooth and not a bit choppy on gearshifts, then you are close to a good setup.

 

[skian]

I couldn't find any documentation for Rev accounting for altitude. I am within 100' of sea level. The only other mod performance wise is VWR drop in filter with the snow screen removed. Not that it makes a big difference, but perhaps a tad less turbo lag.
When I get a chance I'll log again at 4.75, and 4.5 to compare.

 

[Radfox]

Do you hear the waste gate opening? Sounds like air getting let out a balloon rapidly.

ECU should control boost and I guess hold back power until it reaches a reading it can work with, I've noticed the spool up is pretty quick on this turbo.

I never hear the wastegate sound unless I am at the top of 1st or 2nd gear with it floored or near floored or trying to get the car to accelerate as hard as possible. I am assuming that this was normal and is part of the car nerfing the power in those gears. Do others hear the wastegate fluttering and then loose power at the top of 1st or 2nd gear?

I hear what you are saying about the ECU controlling boost but based on several of my VDCS logs I am more inclined to believe that my boost has some profile that it always trys to follow based mainly on pedal position and I guess its perceived loading, and then what really controls how much power you get from that boost profile is based on timing and fuel control. If there is knock present or I guess misfires (I have not seen these) then the timing is retarded and or the mixture is richened to protect the engine while the boost level is untouched. Again, this is my interpretation of what I am seeing. I have only one log where I saw a significantly lower boost profile than I normally do at WOT (don't know why), and that particular profile is where my car appeared to be pulling its hardest through the gears. Which is telling me that I need my peak boost profile lowered but I cannot directly adjust it since I have APR.

 

[Radfox]

Are you reading this off of VCDS? I assume you actually mean 1.4 bar which is about 20 PSI.

Yes, this is with VCDS and I am at ~5000ft with my ECU atmospheric pressure at about .86, so subtract .86 instead of 1, so the boost is about at 22.5 PSI when the car starts to pull hard. Over this and I see lots of timing being pulled.

Car seems to hit all of the pressures, just at a different rate with full throttle vs 3/4 throttle. The difference is that with 3/4 throttle, the boost builds slower than full throttle. This is off of a NewSouth mechanical boost gauge.

I do agree based on my logs that pedal position controls the rate at which boost is applied but I am not sure at what partial position will give the same boost levels as WOT. It may well be that 3/4 pedal is the same as WOT, is this what you are saying?

I haven't come to any real conclusion yet, but my initial thought is that we mustn't confuse acceleration and rate of acceleration. What I mean is that the rate at which the car is accelerating increases as torque builds and torque increases with increase in boost. The other thing to keep in mind is to keep shift points the same when doing this because torque starts dropping off after about ~5k RPM on a stock engine (according to dynos that I've looked up for stock engine).

I agree that a higher boost level has the potential to create more torque, but without being able to maintain maximum timing and the leanest AFR possible, that extra boost may not gain anything.

I am not sure I understand where you are coming from with the shift points. Yes, torque falls off at higher RPM on this engine, and when you shift you momentarily loose all torque and some boost (I have 6MT), but what does this have to do with several of us getting pulled timing at various boost levels when we are not shifting?

What I was trying to convey in my earlier post was that when I floor it, my boost peaks to 2.8 bar absolute and excessive timing is pulled, as soon as my pressure drops to about 2.4 bar absolute (22.5 PSI actual) the timing starts to advance and the car starts to rapidly increase rate of acceleration. So what I am thinking is that at least for me, and maybe some others (maybe those with 6MT and with lots of timing pulled when we first floor the car in any gear at any RPM, and for those that do not pull mostly positive timing of at least 5 degrees advance throughout most of the RPM band), that we need our max boost peak limited more to keep timing retard minimum when we first floor it so that we can start to pull more positive timing earlier in the RPM ramp. I hope that made sense.