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We tried to take a FWD lap record; instead we built the perfect street and track MQB…

tigeo

Autocross Champion
I've enjoyed reading this thread and the other you posted. I am a bit north of you in Oklahoma and understand your issues with getting good track days in before June. I tracked my GTI in May and June of this year and had issues w/temperatures in the later sessions. Oil temps would get to 260 and I'd let off. I have read people here have hit 270 and had no issues. My coolant temps also run hot in the afternoon sessions. I did change to a CSF radiator (I know, polarizing thoughts on this but it works on my supercharged Mustang) and used water wetter. Those 2 did help some on my most recent track day. During my 15 minute session in 103 degree Oklahoma heat, I had to do a 1/2 lap cool down twice in each of the last 2 sessions.
This weekend, I am replacing the AC condenser that has fins all bent to shit, swapping my intercooler from a crap BMS to a better (hopefully) 034, and I am putting in a center mount race louver on a dedicated hood for track use. I do currently have my coolant stack sealed w/HVAC tape and will reapply after I swap these parts.
Given your setup, how are you managing temps? What mods have you done to address cooling issues?
260 is pretty good...no real need to nurse it at that temp. 280+ the coolant will start to go north in my experience. Oil itself is not an issue at that temp.
 

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
I've enjoyed reading this thread and the other you posted. I am a bit north of you in Oklahoma and understand your issues with getting good track days in before June. I tracked my GTI in May and June of this year and had issues w/temperatures in the later sessions. Oil temps would get to 260 and I'd let off. I have read people here have hit 270 and had no issues. My coolant temps also run hot in the afternoon sessions. I did change to a CSF radiator (I know, polarizing thoughts on this but it works on my supercharged Mustang) and used water wetter. Those 2 did help some on my most recent track day. During my 15 minute session in 103 degree Oklahoma heat, I had to do a 1/2 lap cool down twice in each of the last 2 sessions.
This weekend, I am replacing the AC condenser that has fins all bent to shit, swapping my intercooler from a crap BMS to a better (hopefully) 034, and I am putting in a center mount race louver on a dedicated hood for track use. I do currently have my coolant stack sealed w/HVAC tape and will reapply after I swap these parts.
Given your setup, how are you managing temps? What mods have you done to address cooling issues?
I would save your money on changing intercooler unless you're IAT's are out of control which I doubt. Instead of you're worried about oil temps, get an auxiliary oil cooler although this have their own issues & compromises.

But as Tigeo mentioned, I would be ecstatic with 260. I am regularly at 275+
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Just an FYI - here is a temp log from my last track day end of May at VIR, ambient was in the low 80s (F). Once coolant gets to 235, the dummy gauge will move and read 235 and from then on seems to show actual temps. I hit 240 and the dash beeped at me and displayed an overheating message so I backed off. Oil was 280+ at that point and DSG was 270+....just too much additional heat for the coolant/cooling system to manage at that ambient. Coolant temp delta in to out of the radiator is just over 10 deg. Clearly adding a divorced/separate oil and DSG cooler removes a significant source of heat the cooling system has to manage but they add other issues/complexity/failure points in a daily driven car....

https://datazap.me/u/karstgeo72/vir-temp-log-0?log=0&data=1-2-3-4-5
 

SpartaChris

New member
Location
Edmond, OK
Car(s)
2019 GTI S
Just an FYI - here is a temp log from my last track day end of May at VIR, ambient was in the low 80s (F). Once coolant gets to 235, the dummy gauge will move and read 235 and from then on seems to show actual temps. I hit 240 and the dash beeped at me and displayed an overheating message so I backed off. Oil was 280+ at that point and DSG was 270+....just too much additional heat for the coolant/cooling system to manage at that ambient. Coolant temp delta in to out of the radiator is just over 10 deg. Clearly adding a divorced/separate oil and DSG cooler removes a significant source of heat the cooling system has to manage but they add other issues/complexity/failure points in a daily driven car....

https://datazap.me/u/karstgeo72/vir-temp-log-0?log=0&data=1-2-3-4-5
Regarding the oil cooler/DSG cooler, has anyone found a way to mount them in a GTI the way VW does for the Golf R? There is plenty of real estate behind the fog lights, but these aftermarket companies insist on putting a hot ass heat exchanger in front of the cooling stack, causing superheated air to then go through the condenser, IC, and radiator. Makes zero sense to me.

I'll definitely do some data logging on my next track weekend (Aug 10/11th).
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Regarding the oil cooler/DSG cooler, has anyone found a way to mount them in a GTI the way VW does for the Golf R? There is plenty of real estate behind the fog lights, but these aftermarket companies insist on putting a hot ass heat exchanger in front of the cooling stack, causing superheated air to then go through the condenser, IC, and radiator. Makes zero sense to me.

I'll definitely do some data logging on my next track weekend (Aug 10/11th).
Yes, you can find examples searching around - on the GTI (and the 1.8 Golf versions), keep in mind that the left side (driver's in the U.S.) there is the secondary air injection pump as well as windshield washer fluid reservoir. Right side is open. The Golf R has the washer bottle on the right side of the engine bay and has no SAI. The issue is ensuring enough flow through the cooler if mounted that way via ducting. Golf R has vented fender lines to promote flow-thru so the GTI/Golf also benefits from those in this case.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Regarding the oil cooler/DSG cooler, has anyone found a way to mount them in a GTI the way VW does for the Golf R? There is plenty of real estate behind the fog lights, but these aftermarket companies insist on putting a hot ass heat exchanger in front of the cooling stack, causing superheated air to then go through the condenser, IC, and radiator. Makes zero sense to me.

I'll definitely do some data logging on my next track weekend (Aug 10/11th).
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/bar-tech-tuning-oil-cooler.392800/post-7794318
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
Regarding the oil cooler/DSG cooler, has anyone found a way to mount them in a GTI the way VW does for the Golf R? There is plenty of real estate behind the fog lights, but these aftermarket companies insist on putting a hot ass heat exchanger in front of the cooling stack, causing superheated air to then go through the condenser, IC, and radiator. Makes zero sense to me.

I'll definitely do some data logging on my next track weekend (Aug 10/11th).
Get @DerHase in on this discussion. He’s a track hound and has experimented with/tested various oil cooler setups on people’s cars. He can help you learn the good and bad before you spend your 💵
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Get @DerHase in on this discussion. He’s a track hound and has experimented with/tested various oil cooler setups on people’s cars. He can help you learn the good and bad before you spend your 💵
Leave that nice man alone.
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
I would save your money on changing intercooler unless you're IAT's are out of control which I doubt. Instead of you're worried about oil temps, get an auxiliary oil cooler although this have their own issues & compromises.

But as Tigeo mentioned, I would be ecstatic with 260. I am regularly at 275+
How dare you deny the benefits of upgraded intercoolers! 😆

Get out of my thread. 😉
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG

tigeo

Autocross Champion
How dare you deny the benefits of upgraded intercoolers! 😆

Get out of my thread. 😉
He has one already, just saying he was going to swap one for another, not really worth it, they all essentially are "the same" within some reasonable margin...much better things to spend time/money on then removing an existing aftermarket IC for something slightly better.
 

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
How dare you deny the benefits of upgraded intercoolers! 😆

Get out of my thread. 😉

He already has an aftermarket intercooler & wants to change it for a different one.
 

DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Regarding the oil cooler/DSG cooler, has anyone found a way to mount them in a GTI the way VW does for the Golf R? There is plenty of real estate behind the fog lights, but these aftermarket companies insist on putting a hot ass heat exchanger in front of the cooling stack, causing superheated air to then go through the condenser, IC, and radiator. Makes zero sense to me.

I'll definitely do some data logging on my next track weekend (Aug 10/11th).

FWIW on a friend's Golf R we designed a duct to take all the hot air that goes through the oil cooler and funnel it below the car. Made a MASSIVE difference not just in coolant/IATs, but actual performance (+9mph on the VIR back straight, granted I think this is because the APR tune slows way TF down when timing gets pulled due to IATs).

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/drivetrain/oil-cooler-duct-conclusionresults

Pushing air under the car isn't "ideal" but with the OEM coolers in the way it was the lesser of evils. It doesn't "block airflow" in any meaningful way that we can tell because IATs are inline with other similar setups and the coolant temps are actually WAY lower than most other samples.

I've been working with another guy (not on this forum) adding his same 19 row oil cooler to the side like a Golf R cooler... and the first test did not go well, still running hot. I don't think it's properly ducted/sealed so a ton of efficiency is being lost, but to ultimately work on the side I think there will need to be some big "scoops" that essentially come forward an inch or two of the bumper on the outer edges of the trim to funnel air into the hole. Otherwise there's a likely boundary layer that is mostly allowing airflow to go right over the hole in the end of the bumper rather than through it.

I think it can be made to work, but the grill of the car is the highest pressure area you're going to find, and there is airflow to spare it appears.

I don't think it's necessarily the "best" way, but the compromises are pretty minimal and requires little fabrication. The duct we used can be printed from the CAD files included on the website.
 

SpartaChris

New member
Location
Edmond, OK
Car(s)
2019 GTI S
He has one already, just saying he was going to swap one for another, not really worth it, they all essentially are "the same" within some reasonable margin...much better things to spend time/money on then removing an existing aftermarket IC for something slightly better.
I had the Burger IC on. From the limited data available, it seems to be a rather poor IC in design and efficiency. I swapped to the 034 IC. Tube & Fin vs Bar & Plate. The 034 is lighter, more charge rows, slightly larger frontal area and volume. On paper, it should be better. I will see if there is any difference when I go to the track in 2 weeks. I know Jeff's flow bench testing is a bit polarizing on this forum, but his test showed the BMS intercooler to be inferior in cooling efficiency when compared to other ICs.
With the BMS IC on, I was seeing IAT's that were 80+F over ambient just on my normal drive home. Pulls would lower it a little, but nowhere near the numbers I have seen on other GTI/R's using different ICs. That was one motivation to swap. Also, I like wrenching on cars in my garage.
From the looks of it, BMS no longer sells this IC for this platform. Perhaps my experience with theirs is not unique.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
I had the Burger IC on. From the limited data available, it seems to be a rather poor IC in design and efficiency. I swapped to the 034 IC. Tube & Fin vs Bar & Plate. The 034 is lighter, more charge rows, slightly larger frontal area and volume. On paper, it should be better. I will see if there is any difference when I go to the track in 2 weeks. I know Jeff's flow bench testing is a bit polarizing on this forum, but his test showed the BMS intercooler to be inferior in cooling efficiency when compared to other ICs.
With the BMS IC on, I was seeing IAT's that were 80+F over ambient just on my normal drive home. Pulls would lower it a little, but nowhere near the numbers I have seen on other GTI/R's using different ICs. That was one motivation to swap. Also, I like wrenching on cars in my garage.
From the looks of it, BMS no longer sells this IC for this platform. Perhaps my experience with theirs is not unique.
I can't find his testing data on the BMS? On any IC you can see crazy IATs at times during normal driving based on heat soaking and cruising without much charge air passing through. Even getting on it you are still seeing huge deltas IAT to amb? Any logging data?
 
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