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Trying to understand the issue of stroke length on dampers with lowering springs

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Been thinking a lot about this recently as I will be swapping in some H&R springs on my GSW after Christmas and likely will just use my ~year old dampers. I have read a $hitload on it with the consensus by many that it will be an issue b/c the dampers are longer/underdamped. I'm good on the underdamped concern..check. The stroke however should have no bearing - the damper stroke is linear i.e. the damping is the same for the entire length of travel. With a 1.5" shorter spring, the stroke is reduced but this shouldn't wear it out any faster...the wear I can see would be from the higher spring rate putting more stress on the damper's internals. You should be able to run say a Bilstein B6 just fine with mild lowering springs or the B8 which has a shorter length. In the static state, the dampers are already in a partial-travel state so it's not like with the stock springs they start at the top of the travel. Am I wrong?
 

odessa.filez

Autocross Champion
Location
Roswell, GA
Car(s)
2016 GSW 1.8tsi auto
fwiw, I've been running GTI springs on my stock GSW struts for 40k miles. My ride height is also a half inch lower than GTI height thanks to suspension leverage due to spacers and front camber. Drive it hard at autox twice a month.
No issues yet.
 

KevinC

Autocross Champion
Location
The land of Wyatt Earp & Doc Holliday
Car(s)
'19 Golf R, '21 M2c
I can't explain the technical reasons why this is a problem, but another issue is that the stock dampers just aren't very good in the first place - they're low-cost parts bin stuff and are MAYBE good for ~40k miles when used with the stock springs they were intended to be used with. Combining them with lowering springs just beats them to a premature death, and they're a poor match from Day 1 because the valving is for a less-firm spring. It's really not wise to replace the springs, and while in there and the labor already "covered", to swap in some proper dampers at the same time. Bilstein B8's are my upgrade of choice for decades. Koni Yellows a good choice too. Coilovers also an option, but then you should corner-balance the car and that's another expense, and they're kinda overkill for a street car.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
I can't explain the technical reasons why this is a problem, but another issue is that the stock dampers just aren't very good in the first place - they're low-cost parts bin stuff and are MAYBE good for ~40k miles when used with the stock springs they were intended to be used with. Combining them with lowering springs just beats them to a premature death, and they're a poor match from Day 1 because the valving is for a less-firm spring. It's really not wise to replace the springs, and while in there and the labor already "covered", to swap in some proper dampers at the same time. Bilstein B8's are my upgrade of choice for decades. Koni Yellows a good choice too. Coilovers also an option, but then you should corner-balance the car and that's another expense, and they're kinda overkill for a street car.

I 100% agree and understand the mismatch issue between stock dampers and perf. springs. I've read a ton and you hear some say the length is am issue and I can't see why. I will likely do dampers as well as you say you are already paying labor. Koni or Bilstein clear crowd faves.
 

KevinC

Autocross Champion
Location
The land of Wyatt Earp & Doc Holliday
Car(s)
'19 Golf R, '21 M2c
Another thing about the B8's - they're warranted for life to the original purchaser, and will easily go 100k+ miles. I put over 100k on a set on my old Scirocco, and when one started leaking, got them replaced with a full set of rebuilt ones for nuttin.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Koni vs. Bilstein with H&Rs?
 

JD-1

Ready to race!
Location
06468
I've heard good things about both. I think a lot of people skip performance shocks/struts and go right to coils on our application though. I have VWR Springs w/ b8s. I've heard a better setup is h&r and b8
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Another thing about the B8's - they're warranted for life to the original purchaser, and will easily go 100k+ miles. I put over 100k on a set on my old Scirocco, and when one started leaking, got them replaced with a full set of rebuilt ones for nuttin.
Yeah, everyone preaches coils it seems but why? I would bet 99% of folks put them on, adjust them once, and never touch them again. I think most like them for 1) the fact you can lower them more than springs and 2) easier install as a complete unit. To me, springs/dampers (I suppose that's a "cup kit") is the way to go...set and forget plus it saves a little $$ vs. typical coil overs. Seems coil overs are more intended for racing where you want to be able to adjust each corner.
 

Raguvian

Autocross Champion
Location
Bay Area, CA
Car(s)
2019 GSW 4MO 6MT
Yeah, everyone preaches coils it seems but why? I would bet 99% of folks put them on, adjust them once, and never touch them again. I think most like them for 1) the fact you can lower them more than springs and 2) easier install as a complete unit. To me, springs/dampers (I suppose that's a "cup kit") is the way to go...set and forget plus it saves a little $$ vs. typical coil overs. Seems coil overs are more intended for racing where you want to be able to adjust each corner.

B8's are just shocks though?

Also coilovers are perfect for getting the ride height you want. Springs only give you one option, coilovers let you get the right look.
 

XM_Rocks

Autocross Newbie
Location
Austin, TX
I can't explain the technical reasons why this is a problem, but another issue is that the stock dampers just aren't very good in the first place - they're low-cost parts bin stuff and are MAYBE good for ~40k miles when used with the stock springs they were intended to be used with.

40k out of stock dampers at stock height is crazy talk.

I would say 100k miles + is more like it when looking at averages.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
40k out of stock dampers at stock height is crazy talk.

I would say 100k miles + is more like it when looking at averages.
My thinking too....good lord 40k? I've only replaced dampers on a few cars in my life and keep them all well north of 100k.
 

KevinC

Autocross Champion
Location
The land of Wyatt Earp & Doc Holliday
Car(s)
'19 Golf R, '21 M2c
40k out of stock dampers at stock height is crazy talk.

I would say 100k miles + is more like it when looking at averages.

Nonsense. Put some 40k shocks onto a shock dyno for an accurate answer - I'll bet my next 27 paychecks that they are DONE by then. 100k? That's ridiculous. At 100k they're doing virtually NOTHING if they're not completely blown long before.
 

Hammersticks

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Bay Area, CA
Car(s)
'16 GTI, '18 e-Golf
A few comments...

Regardling damper length, Bilstein says this here which I agree with in principle (it’s all about ensuring pre-tension). You don’t want the spring floating about; however, you would likely need a very short spring to actually turn this into a real issue on most applications. Guys slap sport springs on their OE dampers all the time. There are also other products though such as the Koni special actives that do rely on there being enough travel as to not continuously hit the bump stops which they can’t keep up with.

As for Koni vs Bilstein, check the sticky or my build, but ultimately it’s all about what YOUR needs are. On the MK7 platform, Bilstein for comfort, Koni yellows for performance. They behave very differently.

Regarding how long OE dampers last, failure at 40k miles can absolutely happen. Happened a couple years ago to a colleague’s stock MK6 actually, although his failed at 35k. :( I agree with KevinC, the OE dampers are garbage compared to Bilstein and Koni.
 

XM_Rocks

Autocross Newbie
Location
Austin, TX
Nonsense. Put some 40k shocks onto a shock dyno for an accurate answer - I'll bet my next 27 paychecks that they are DONE by then. 100k? That's ridiculous. At 100k they're doing virtually NOTHING if they're not completely blown long before.

Putting them on a shock dyno? lol

If a shock is blown or shot you shouldn’t have to put it on a dyno to tell.

Sure there is degradation but you eluded that they’re done at 40k... to me shot means completely blown, leaking/leaked out and unable to control their movement.

There is no way in hell shocks are shot on OEM parts when most cars are coming off lease. That’s insanity.

You can take anything to this extreme. Like the people that change their oil at 3k-5k or getting their valves cleaned at 50k miles. It’s overkill in most cases.
 
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