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Track TEMP DATA: IC and radiator combo data collection - ALL YOUR LOGS ARE BELONG TO US!

manu97

Autocross Champion
Location
Chicago
Car(s)
MK7 R

DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Let's get back on topic. This isn't a "hood scoop placement" thread. Unless it's being run on a car in the logs.


Anyway:
Thanks to @q74 here is some data from his car. *Make sure to see the footnotes below!*

Track: DDT (Mosport?)
Car: Golf R 2018, 6MT (Manual)
Turbo: Stock OEM IS38
Tune: In these logs, its full OEM stock

Full Mod List (on date of those logs);
- AMS Inter-cooler
- CSF Main Radiator
- CSF Aux Radiator

- iAbed Baffled Oil Pan
- DiselGeek Full Short Shifter Assembly
- Stock Airbox with snow/rain grate removed
- Unitronics TIP (turbo inlet elbow pipe)
- RacingLine Intake Pipe
- BFI STG1 Engine/Trans Mount (Billet)
- Verkline Front Subframe
- Full length OEM Undertray
- Ohlins MU21S2 (3DM valved, 90N/mm front, 120N/mm rear)
- Ground Control Camber Plates
- Audi TTS Front LCA (TTRS full bushing)
- 034 Rear Upper Control Arm (Density)
- 034 Rear Toe Arm (Density)
- Stoptech ST40 355mm BBK
- AntiGravity LiFpo4 Battery
- Verus Diffuser
- 245/35/18 ExtremeContact Force, mounted on 18x 9.5" ET45 Enkei

For some context:

I asked q74 about relative pace
Awesome! I take it the second session you were driving harder?

On these logs, just checking but were you new to that track, not driving very hard for whatever reason, etc? Would you consider yourself "fast"?

I only ask because when it comes to temps and stuff, people who aren't on throttle as often just plain won't have as many issues.
To which he responded:
TL;DR: Car can do 1:36, those logs are in 1:40 -> 1:45 range, about 3 to 8 seconds off pace, and one of those 2 days is wet.

I choose logs with more ODB2 data, and one of those two days it was wet/raining. These are from DDT, which is a very tight technical track, which is hard on tires and brakes, but not really much of a speed. The car (in set-up as of the dates of those logs) is capable of a 1:36 when driven full on hard with full shifting where appropriate at that track, but in those logs are in the 1:40 ->1:45 range with no shifting (3rd gear only) so I'm hitting rev limiter a lot - if you look at throttle position (which oddly maxes at 87% or w/e) you'll see foot is down but car no-go, lol.

Anyways, I don't have past logs with as "full" obd data where it was driven full-send, but from what I can recall, the temps for coolant and IAT were roughly same, but oil hits 135c after 1 hard lap.


I have converted all these to F - because I found that if you try and use C difference, anyone converting to F ends up with +32F over what the true difference is. This is because the formula requires both Ambient + IAT to be converted via (TEMP C *(9/5)+32). This leaves you with a ~10C difference for example. If you take that straight difference and convert to F, it shows 50F difference. But if IAT is 30C, and AAT is 20C, those correlate to 86F and 68F respectively. Obviously not a 50F difference.

Also due to the different data source I am using PUT along the left axis. Since OBDII "throttle" is actually not the PEDAL, but is the throttle blade, I have the WOT only configured to only display data above 65% (maxes at 86% which is true WOT).

This is the data from the SECOND of two logs he sent. I'm ASSUMING this one is the dry day which would be more applicable because: higher top speeds, higher lateral Gs, and higher average throttle position. Also higher temperature deltas.

q74 stock tune AMS IC CSF rad temp delta histogram2.JPG




Summary: bear in mind this is a STOCK tune, but as you can see the IAT vs AAT is not terrible at all. For a point of comparison my bone stock *GTI* (IC, rad and all) was seeing 40-50F over ambient on a 78F day. Clearly it appears the AMS IC is working.

However we will also look at the general temperatures of the coolant: it averages out to about 223F over a large portion of the session. Min 215, Max 230F. Again this goes directly against everything that the CSF marketing claims. And keep in mind this is likely close to a best-case scenario: STOCK tune, just an IC. They "claimed" the following:
https://csfrace.com/csf-cooling-releases-the-missing-link-for-the-mqb-platform/
AFTER INSTALLING THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE AUX ENGINE RADIATOR (CSF #8132) TO COMPLETE THE ULTIMATE COOLING SOLUTION FOR THE MQB MK7 GOLF R, RESULTS SHOW THAT THE COOLANT TEMPERATURES WERE MAINTAINED IN OPTIMAL RANGE (W/ PEAK @ 212°F) THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE DAY REGARDLESS OF THE AMBIENT AND TRACK TEMPERATURES. WITH THIS ADDED COOLING POWER, ASH NOW HAS THE CAPABILITY TO TRACK HIS GOLF R IN EXTREME CONDITIONS INCLUDING LONGER AND CHALLENGING RACE TRACKS WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT COOLING ISSUES SO THERE’S DEFINITELY MORE ROOM TO PUSH THE CAR TO ITS LIMITS.



1685636161314.png


I know that q74 is headed to the track later this month (and now S1 tuned) - so it will be interesting to see follow up data on this.
 
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yakboyslim

Go Kart Champion
I have converted all these to F - because I found that if you try and use C difference, anyone converting to F ends up with +32F over what the true difference is. This is because the formula requires both Ambient + IAT to be converted via (TEMP C *(9/5)+32). This leaves you with a ~10C difference for example. If you take that straight difference and convert to F, it shows 50F difference. But if IAT is 30C, and AAT is 20C, those correlate to 86F and 68F respectively. Obviously not a 50F difference.
If you are converting a temp delta just do deltaTEMPC*9/5. You add 32 when converting because zero is different between F and C, but zero is the same for deltaF and deltaC, so don't add that part. Or convert both ambient and IAT like you did, just saying you can convert deltas too.
 

DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
If you are converting a temp delta just do deltaTEMPC*9/5. You add 32 when converting because zero is different between F and C, but zero is the same for deltaF and deltaC, so don't add that part. Or convert both ambient and IAT like you did, just saying you can convert deltas too.

Right. I prefer working in bald eagle units for temperature so I just wrote custom PIDs to convert ECT, IAT, and AAT and then everything works like normal (including the delta feature on the histogram). I see 19 deg ambient and am like "wtf" :ROFLMAO:
 

dood.

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
2017 GTI S DSG
Here's some more data from my car for comparison.

Track: Ridge Motorsports Park, Shelton WA
Car: 2017 GTI S DSG (no VAQ)
Turbo: Stock IS20
Tune: EQT Stage 2 91 octane, EQT DSG tune
Fuel: 92 octane

This was my 4th time out on track and the 4th session of the day and I had 5 "real" laps (one was a cooldown lap and I think I came into the pits to get a gap also). Lap times were 2:04 to 2:07, car should be able to do sub two minutes based on other times I've seen.

Full mod list:
  • Integrated Engineering V2 intercooler
  • MAP catted downpipe
  • 034 turbo inlet hose
  • 034 turbo inlet pipe
  • K&N panel filter in stock airbox
  • Apex 17x9 SM-10 with 245/40/17 Hankook RS4
  • ST rear sway bar
  • RS3 brake ducts
  • Porterfield R-4 track pads up front
  • Powerflex diesel dogbone insert
  • Roc Euro pendulum mount
Thanks for collecting and sharing all this data!
 

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DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Track: Ridge Motorsports Park, Shelton WA
Car: 2017 GTI S DSG (no VAQ)
Turbo: Stock IS20
Tune: EQT Stage 2 91 octane, EQT DSG tune
Fuel: 92 octane

This was my 4th time out on track and the 4th session of the day and I had 5 "real" laps (one was a cooldown lap and I think I came into the pits to get a gap also). Lap times were 2:04 to 2:07, car should be able to do sub two minutes based on other times I've seen.

Full mod list:
  • Integrated Engineering V2 intercooler
  • MAP catted downpipe
  • 034 turbo inlet hose
  • 034 turbo inlet pipe
  • K&N panel filter in stock airbox
  • Apex 17x9 SM-10 with 245/40/17 Hankook RS4
  • ST rear sway bar
  • RS3 brake ducts
  • Porterfield R-4 track pads up front
  • Powerflex diesel dogbone insert
  • Roc Euro pendulum mount


The IE V2 IC seems to be doing it's job.

It looks like the EQT tune is running very similar boost pressures to me (about 24psi tapered to 18, mine is about 0.5psi less basically). Looks like all temps are pretty comparable overall to my GTI with my own tune and the DO88. Ambient is about 6F higher for your log, which would probably account for the degree or two difference in IATs and peak coolant temps.


1685661794930.png



This log is actually REALLY good to demonstrate just how much your relative speed as a driver plays in how hot the car will get. Take a look at this where I've highlighted the section leading up to coolant peaking at 234F. Notice the average pedal position (66%) in that span in the lower right corner:

1685662330252.png

Vs later in the log, same ~47 sec time span where pedal position is a 35% average of the same length of time. Also note the much lower coolant temp peak and averages:

1685662615002.png


As far as KR goes, it's not terrible. A tad bit more than I'd prefer in a few spots (mostly towards the end of the session), but that's really nitpicking.

1685662940768.png

The reddish dots aren't too much of a concern, but notice all the green-bright yellow dots in the same general RPM range? Approx 3300. I'd probably pull a bit of timing there myself. A lot of them are happening during transient throttle changes. Not a big problem generally speaking, but then can be reduced to <3.0 deg if time is spent. Took me a good while to get mine to where I was happy with it. I have 3 different maps loaded each with slightly reduced timing in case I get a large amount of KR on track due to heat or whatever. The other alternative is to pull timing from the spark IAT table if this only happens when beating on track/with everything heat soaked. I'm like 70ish revisions in on my own file because I'm OCD about making it safe.

1685663670396.png

You can see all the cylinders registering knock on throttle tip-in at 3100-3300ish here:

1685663736996.png
 
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ironicbadger

Ready to race!
Location
Raleigh NC
Car(s)
19 MK7.5 R EQT Stg1
Ran a few sessions at NCCAR yesterday in 80F+ temps, I've attached 4 sessions worth of CSVs captured by my accessport. Anything of interest? I'm a total n00b to logging and I didn't pay the money for the megalog software yet.

Car is completely mechanically stock. EQT Stage 1 off the shelf tune.
 

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DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Ran a few sessions at NCCAR yesterday in 80F+ temps, I've attached 4 sessions worth of CSVs captured by my accessport. Anything of interest? I'm a total n00b to logging and I didn't pay the money for the megalog software yet.

Car is completely mechanically stock. EQT Stage 1 off the shelf tune.


Unfortunately no real useful info. No IAT, no ambient temp, no vehicle speed, no coolant temp, etc. Also useful would be oil temp (just for reference, even though it's not the direct sensor reading) and DSG temp.

Timing pull seems decent as temps rise and knock is acceptable (though amount of numbing is unknown). Def looks better than APR.
 

ironicbadger

Ready to race!
Location
Raleigh NC
Car(s)
19 MK7.5 R EQT Stg1
Unfortunately no real useful info. No IAT, no ambient temp, no vehicle speed, no coolant temp, etc. Also useful would be oil temp (just for reference, even though it's not the direct sensor reading) and DSG temp.

Timing pull seems decent as temps rise and knock is acceptable (though amount of numbing is unknown). Def looks better than APR.
Damn. I tried! Will grab some more next weekend at VIR
 

DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Thanks to @yakboyslim :

Track: Nelson Ledges

2016 GTI
6MT

Engine:
Mamba 2867R
BMS intake
ebay charge pipes
Rev9 stock location intercooler
CTS DP
Borla Exhaust.

Drivetrain:
Ringer Racing stage 5 clutch
bunch of shifter mods.

Suspension:
Driver Gear springs
stock DCC shocks and controller
APR front sway bar
ST suspension rear sway
ECS endlinks
deadset kit (front and rear)
034 camber tops
superpro caster LCA bushings

Cooling:
CJM fender vents
Verus hood vents

ECS street shield
ECS tunnel shield
some of the rear OEM plastics

1686158940703.png

Visualization of knock retard, all cyl had one or two spikes over 3 deg of KR, but otherwise mostly stayed under that:

1686159061688.png


So far the only real parallels I've drawn are that overall temps seem to be far easier to tame on 6MT equipped cars vs DSG, which makes sense. This could also be a very good case for venting doing it's job as well.
 

DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Updated the original post and started putting a spreadsheet together:

I'm going to attempt to catalog some reference samples now that I have a few.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BzLSSdXMxIuBQukLpfR0y79UY23l-ljpYSVHgaA8rMc/edit?usp=sharing

A few IMPORTANT things to note when viewing this spreadsheet:
- These logs are NOT everyone's fastest possible lap times. I'm only pulling data from the hottest sessions because we're trying to analyze the heat soaking of these cars. I can run 2:13s-2:14s consistently early in the morning but late afternoon they're more like 2:15s-2:16s. Temps are higher, tire grip falls off, etc.

- I'm looking over all the logs, eyeballing where oil temps peak/stay elevated the highest, and grabbing a ~200 second snapshot inside Mega Log Viewer. I'm jotting down the averages of IAT, AAT, coolant, etc.

- Oil temps. Depending on how they're logged will make a difference. I've done my own testing and the cluster/MDI is accurate when up to temp. The PID that gets logged over OBDII/Cobb/etc is "toil" internally. This is a calculated value. "toil_srv_intl" is calculated until about 120F, then reverts to direct readings at least up to ~270F. This is the value that gets displayed on the cluster. My car has the 3E HSL enabled so I can log toil_srv_intl. The logic for "toil" gets messed up when you add coolers, more power, etc. This first example Golf R has oil cooler and CSF radiator. It shows 285F oil temps logging "toil" even though the dash never shows above 250 to 255F since adding the coolers. Just wanted to make sure everyone knows comparing oil temps is a bit murky due to this.

- Comparing different vehicles, different drivers, at different tracks is not a fair apples to apples comparison. You will overheat more quickly if you're fast. You might not if the track is lots of long sweeping corners where temperatures can stabilize back down from building on the straights. I'm going to attempt to add some relative lap record times from Spec Miata and Spec E46 as a frame of reference for relative speed.

- Also for comparing various data samples is average pedal position. This brings the track variable a bit out of the equation. The more often you're on throttle harder, the faster you'll go and the less of a break the car gets to cool down in between.
 
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GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG

ironicbadger

Ready to race!
Location
Raleigh NC
Car(s)
19 MK7.5 R EQT Stg1
My last session at VIR this afternoon with ambients in the high 80s. Had a really fun couple of laps behind a GT3RS - man that thing sounds awesome on a track. It sings.

I digress, overall the temps look decent to my untrained eye. The only one that concerns me mildly is the gearbox oil temp, as you can see it climbs and keeps climbing all the way through the session. Tomorrow we have 30 min sessions compared to the 25 min here. The hot track and therefore greasy tires and traffic prevented me from going full attack all session long but I was making 2:30 when I had some clear road so certainly not slow. Captured via Cobb accessport, and yes because I'm British the units are in celcius. @DerHase will just have to deal.

I'll get some more logs tomorrow.

Mechanically 100% stock car. Street tires. Stage 1 EQT OTS tune. 93 gas.
 

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DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Some data from @ironicbadger from VIR this past weekend.

As a recap:
2019 Golf R w/ DSG
Mechanically stock (intercooler and all)
EQT S1 93 + DSG OTS tunes.

Sunday (this data log he sent me he was driving faster, temps were a bit higher, etc):

1686533784561.png


1686533967384.png



100% time for an intercooler.

Once pace picks up then the rest of the temperatures will need to be monitored, but nothing else is a concern yet until that happens.

Since we have a bunch of data from VIR, you can definitely see how overall pace plays a huge part in whether you'll have problems or not.

Also added to the spreadsheet.
 
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