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The usual thrust bearing failure

steveb

New member
Location
portland
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
Just in case this topic has not been talked to death...

I have another data point in case it helps others to clarify what may or may not apply to your situation.

I have a 2017 R with the manual that I bought new. The car commuted from seattle to portland weekly for work (400 miles) so it was going to get a lot of highway miles on it. I was well aware the VW quality was pretty dismal, but the driving experience was great and I am no crazy kid that was going to be doing stupid things so I figured it was worth the risk.

At 90k miles the stock clutch started to slip and I replaced it with the South Bend KMK7-HD-OCE clutch. This is the stage 2 endurance clutch on their site. In the description "Recommended uses are daily and street with an emphasis on rally and endurance racing" that seemed ok as I wanted a daily driver with a better grip in the clutch. They have a good reputation and lots of folks are happy with them. Seemed like a good choice as the stock clutch is a vague mushy thing that has no pedal feel to speak of. Having driven a clutch all my life I was not impressed with it when I bought the car and when the problem with it started, the service guy at the dealership noted that most folks replaced it with an aftermarket one anyway when this happened.

Really like the new clutch! Was a great upgrade. Kept driving and hit 135k miles when the throwout bearing seemed to fail and I immediately figured out it had a big problem due to the grinding feel I got from the pedal. Parked it and then took it to the shop, maybe had 5 miles from the failure detected to the shop. Talked to the South Bend folks and asked what might have cause the clutch to fail after 45k miles. Seemed like a premature failure to me. They indicated that it may have had a installation problem and something went wrong due to that. OK, seemed possible and clutches wear out anyway so just replace it with another and pay more attention with the install.

Got another clutch sent to the shop and they installed it and did a quick test drive. Engine coded with a missing timing error. They did some research and found that code had to do with the thrust bearing being worn. They called me and I went to the shop and watched when they depressed the clutch and the crank pushed out 4 or 5 mm on the belt side! No micrometer needed to see there was a problem. Basically new short block needed. Bummer.

Now, I had not thought to actually check to see if this kind of thing would be a problem, when you think of it, it is really a stupid kind of failure. Having driven a 78 volvo 242 GT for 300k miles before rebuilding it and driving another 160k and not experiencing this kind of issue it was not something on my radar. Stupid me.

So just in case you're interested in what your options are at this point, you might find a used engine of uncertain condition and roll the dice. Given the general "enthusiastic" driving folks brag about and the stuff I have witnessed, not a viable option as the bad drivers are likely the ones to be in the junk yard for good reason.

If you want the short bock there is one advertised from Euro Sport:

https://www.eurosporttuning.com/ie-20t-tsi-gen-3-sport-short-block-fits-vw-audi-mqb-mk7-8v-8s.html

Basically 5k with exchange. Give them a call and you will find out that it is actually no longer available and they simply forgot to remove it from the site and it is not coming back. Bummer...

Of course, they don't actually fix the core engineering problem of a weak thrust bearing so the 500HP they claim they can support so that is really just a racing setup where you rebuild it all the time anyway, no help on the street.

So that leaves VW itself. They don't sell short blocks. Bummer again. They do sell rebuilt long blocks at $6,980 with a $2,225 core charge. Of course you can also get a new one for $8,852. Your choice! I went with the rebuilt one. As for the clutch, I am going to swap the friction plate for the KMK7F-HD-0 one after talking with the South Bend rep who had sympathy but no real options that were going to be any easier on the thrust bearing. All the Stage 2 clutches have exactly the same pressure plates. I am not going back to the stock one as it is just worthless. I hope to get the car back in a few weeks and I now have a new 12 month 12k mile warranty on the long block so I guess that is a good thing?

After spending a lot of time discussing this with my mechanic, there is simply no way to do preventative maintenance on this thrust bearing. If you detect a problem, it is already too late as the clearances are already causing problems in the rotating parts. If you think you want to join the exclusive club of people that do engine out of car maintenance (Ferrari) and want to replace it at some number of miles, say every 30k, you are asking for a full rebuild of the short block anyway as all the bearings should be replaced as well so it is about the same as that long block from VW. You can't maintain poor engineering choices.

So what have i learned? Well as I tell folks when they ask about the car, it is 9 out of 10 for driving and 2 out of 10 for quality. I have had a lot of failures on parts that are just stupid (Why does a steering rack fail as 60k?) so in reality the engine and a lot of the parts on the car are simply disposable at very few miles. The base warranty on the car sucked up about 6k worth of failures and the extended warranty another 6k. This mess is going to run around $10k when complete. I was actually hoping to have already dumped this one and get a new one but they were not yet available. Bummer again. The moral of the story, dump it before you run out of warranty!

Basically I did a real long term ownership test in a short time to see how miles impact the car and VW actually does deserve the poor quality rating.

BTW: If you have problems with the car eating the rear fuel pump, the problem turned out to be a bad vent in the fuel tank that caused the pump to get damaged when the fuel level gets low. One symptom is that a quick stop at the grocery store for 5 to 15 minutes caused the car to stumbled badly when you get get back and start it up again. That little gem cost 3 fuel rear pumps (every 30k miles) and one front high pressure setup on warranty when the dealer and the regional service reps could not figure out the cause but detected low pressure failure on the pump. The new tank is around $1,600 and yes, I also needed that 4th rear fuel pump. Go VW!
 

Luva

Go Kart Champion
Location
FL
Car(s)
2020 GTI SE
Wow, a failed thrust bearing souds like a doozy. Sorry you experienced this.

I should probably know this, but how does the clamping force on the Southbend Stage 2 clutch compare to the Stage 1 vs stock? And of course, not saying this would have changed your outcome, just pure curiosity on my part.
 

Jose_Gti

Autocross Newbie
Location
Philadelphia
wow, really everything that could go wrong it went wrong….
I had an engine failure on my 2015 GTI but I ended up trading it for a 2019.
I hope you can get at least another 90k miles from this block.
I don’t understand why this failures happened predominantly in the US. I’ve lived 30 years in Europe and a VW was like a Toyota here, cheap and reliable, I guess it’s not the case anymore….
 

steveb

New member
Location
portland
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
Wow, a failed thrust bearing souds like a doozy. Sorry you experienced this.

I should probably know this, but how does the clamping force on the Southbend Stage 2 clutch compare to the Stage 1 vs stock? And of course, not saying this would have changed your outcome, just pure curiosity on my part.
The south bend site does not have anything below the stage 2 available for my car. The "force" for the daily is 400 and for the endurance is 465, but that is actually not the pressure plate. That is the force that the friction plate will apply to the pressure plate and the flywheel when it is released. Consider it the gripping force or how fast you are going to get launched. The pressure plates are exactly the same for all of the Stage 2 clutches, it is only the composition of the friction plate that changes. Endurance has the ceramic on one side to give it better grip and the daily has organic on both sides. I don't have any numbers for the pressure applied to to the thrust bearing for SB or VW. Right now I figure this is the best clutch according to the aftermarket and might as well keep it. However I seem to have way more miles than just about anyone on an R and the dealer I got the clutch from says he has sold lots and has them on his car with no problem. He only has guys with 25k miles however and I did that in less than a year...

I think that I also have to adjust to the reality of that thrust bearing and NEVER keep the clutch engaged for any length of time. If you stop at the light, put it out of gear no matter what. Same for stop and go traffic driving. It is a delicate creature that has to be babied.
 

steveb

New member
Location
portland
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
The thrust washer was revised in December 2017. Your rebuilt long block may have the revised part, but I don't yet know if that part is better.

Sorry for your loss.
Do you have the failed thrust washer/pieces of it? I am doing a study of different thrust washer revisions and will pay you to ship it to me.
Thanks.
When I talked to the dealer about the new long block they did have some notes on it, but they seemed to apply to the DSG. I certainly hope you are right and that bearing gets significantly bigger. Mine was purchased in January of 2017 so I would have an old one.

When it comes to the failed part, I would love to give it to you, but the reality of the exchange is that they are just going to swap the old parts on to the new engine and not open it up. However, I do have a nice aluminum pan and that should be swapped for the cheap plastic one they are going to send me. If they find parts in the pan, your welcome to them. Will let you know.
 

gingercabrio

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
Golf R, Cabrio VR6
When I talked to the dealer about the new long block they did have some notes on it, but they seemed to apply to the DSG. I certainly hope you are right and that bearing gets significantly bigger. Mine was purchased in January of 2017 so I would have an old one.

When it comes to the failed part, I would love to give it to you, but the reality of the exchange is that they are just going to swap the old parts on to the new engine and not open it up. However, I do have a nice aluminum pan and that should be swapped for the cheap plastic one they are going to send me. If they find parts in the pan, your welcome to them. Will let you know.
The size of the bearing isn't necessarily the problem. Previous and current VW engines have used a similar thrust bearing setup without this issue. The hardness of the bearing is a critical factor in its wear profile, and may have changed with the new, revised thrust washer. Unfortunately, when the revision was issued, the old bearing became No Longer Available, so I can't do comparative testing between the two parts.

In every case of crankwalk I've heard of, the thrust washer halves inevitably end up in the pan. I would greatly appreciate if you can get hold of them, even though they aren't a perfect data point given their mileage.
 

steveb

New member
Location
portland
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
The size of the bearing isn't necessarily the problem. Previous and current VW engines have used a similar thrust bearing setup without this issue. The hardness of the bearing is a critical factor in its wear profile, and may have changed with the new, revised thrust washer. Unfortunately, when the revision was issued, the old bearing became No Longer Available, so I can't do comparative testing between the two parts.

In every case of crankwalk I've heard of, the thrust washer halves inevitably end up in the pan. I would greatly appreciate if you can get hold of them, even though they aren't a perfect data point given their mileage.
Do you have a link to the upgrade details? It does sound like the new part was interchangeable with the old so the rebuild I am getting would have the new part.
 

Daks

Autocross Champion
Location
Toronto
Car(s)
GTI PP
Sorry to hear. This is the first time I read of this happening to a SB. At those prices, it makes sense to say goodbye to the EA888.
 

gingercabrio

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
Car(s)
Golf R, Cabrio VR6

krs

Autocross Champion
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Car(s)
MKVIIS R
T
Sorry to hear. This is the first time I read of this happening to a SB. At those prices, it makes sense to say goodbye to the EA888.

It's an issue in the air cooled VW engines as well. When I built my engine for my 63' bug, it was recommended by the clutch manufacturer that you not just sit at the stop light with the clutch pedal in, but to go into neutral. I mean I do that anyways, just leaving it in seems odd to me regardless of vehicle.
 

Daks

Autocross Champion
Location
Toronto
Car(s)
GTI PP
T


It's an issue in the air cooled VW engines as well. When I built my engine for my 63' bug, it was recommended by the clutch manufacturer that you not just sit at the stop light with the clutch pedal in, but to go into neutral. I mean I do that anyways, just leaving it in seems odd to me regardless of vehicle.
Same, way more effort.
 

JerseyDrew77

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia & NC
Car(s)
2016 TR GTI S 6MT
This is nothing new fellas and has already been looked in to. Just search thrust bearing failure on this forum and you will find the thread. It's a hit or miss thing and doesn't matter which clutch you have because it's happened to all kinds even the stock clutch.
 

steveb

New member
Location
portland
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
Wow, a failed thrust bearing souds like a doozy. Sorry you experienced this.

I should probably know this, but how does the clamping force on the Southbend Stage 2 clutch compare to the Stage 1 vs stock? And of course, not saying this would have changed your outcome, just pure curiosity on my part.
Checked on force applied to the crank and those pesky thrust bearings with south bend pressure plate from the SB rep handling my friction plate swap. Stage 2 kits are compatible to the stock golf pressure plate, the stage 3 kits are about 40% stronger. My clutch setup should have worn just like the stock clutch. You get about 140k miles out of an engine and then you throw it away for another.
 

gboticus

Autocross Champion
Location
Vancouver, BC
Car(s)
2019 R DSG
Checked on force applied to the crank and those pesky thrust bearings with south bend pressure plate from the SB rep handling my friction plate swap. Stage 2 kits are compatible to the stock golf pressure plate, the stage 3 kits are about 40% stronger. My clutch setup should have worn just like the stock clutch. You get about 140k miles out of an engine and then you throw it away for another.
If this is accurate, then not springing for SB stage 3 on my manual GTI was a blessing. And SB stage 2 daily still held up to hybrid turbo power and tons of abuse.
 
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