360hp kid hauler gets a long-awaited front sway bar upgrade... (detailed review & FSB database inside)

[GoatAutomotive]

**new and exciting updates being added, including test results from an upcoming 5/10 track day…stay tuned!”​

Feast your eyes, gents. I scored a very nice deal on a 28mm H&R front sway bar to compliment the 25.4mm rear bar I've had on the car for several years now.

And it only comes in "Delicious Blue"...

4/19/23 - FSB Install & Write-Up in Post #19

I'm also pulling the trigger on these (below) after many hours of research into the adjustable camber mount options for our cars, since installing LCAs w/additional camber, or employing GTI Clubsport knuckles, can be substantially more expensive to accomplish the same result:

4/19/23 - FSB Install & Write-Up on Post #18


For a fun baseline, see the pics at the bottom of this post showing Stormy on track 3/15 with the stock 24mm FSB and a beefy 1” rear APR bar.

Moog HD ELs all around and they are awesome.

If I didn’t f*** up a line/corner entry, the under steer was verrrry controllable, but body motion control needs work… Hence this discussion below.



Sway Bar Intro:
It's always surprising how the sway bar topic attracts as much misinformation and confusion as people asking "which spark plugs should I run on my tuned MQB?"

There are some very nice package deals available from top-name suspension companies where you can purchase the front and rear bars as a pair to save some coin, and have the most complete, balanced result.

The elephant in the room is the front SB install, which intimidates most, since it involves lowering the front cradle, and being mindful of some critical mechanical and electronic items up in there.

Gratefully, this platform doesn't have the motor mounts integrated into the subframe like most passenger cars do, so lowering and supporting the front cradle is quite easy if you have the basic tools required for brake and suspension work. The motor and trans stay in position by way of the OE fenders/body in the engine bay.

A smaller ~1.5 ton aluminum floor jack and a nice 2x4 to spread the load (that's what she said!) will go a long way, and allow you to safely lower the cradle in a controlled manner.

Some have said they only had to lower the front part of the cradle, with the rear bolts loosened a few turns, to gain the needed access for removing the stock FSB. I will report on this first hand in a week or so when I do this install in my shop. I did precisely this to install my Whiteline front LCAs back in early January, with excellent results.

To keep this post concise, I'll simply reference the FSB install procedure here, as a PDF, courtesy of the good folks at 034 Motorsports:

https://www.034motorsport.com/docs/...t-sway-bar-install-guide-diy-034-402-1009.pdf

*Note on the above: DO verify all torque specs with VW factory specs when consulting aftermarket install guides.


1) I recommend anyone on the fence about a front SB consult the above walk-through. It should put you at ease; eliminating your unknowns and apprehension. It also shows you what a qualified shop will be doing if you need to pay a professional.

2) Front subframe hardware and sway bar hardware, from the factory, is 1-time use, TTY fasteners.

3) Some of the front sway bars offered will include new brackets and hardware for the bar itself. Look closely at what's included in the FSB you select, as new TTY bolts for the FSB might not be needed. Only the front cradle bolts.

4) You can and should purchase a new set together from one of our vendors, or even from your local VW dealer if you're in a pinch.

5) And yes, after lowering or removing your front cradle, you absolutely should have the alignment touched up or verified by a qualified shop with a good Hunter machine.

6) If you don't mind the steep $300 cost, you can spring for a Tyrol Sport Deadset kit at this time, which will properly center and locate your front cradle, every time.

https://www.tyrolsport.com/suspensi...igid-subframe-kit-for-mk7/mqb/a3/s3/rs3/ttrs/

Part of the expense (and appeal) of the Deadset kit is the inclusion of the drastically superior, multi-use ARP hardware to mount the subframe, instead of the factory 1-time use bolts. I hate TTY bolts. A lot. But I understand why OEs employ them.

..."My chassis, my choice!"

7) As an alternative, 034 Motorsports offers a simpler, more affordable kit that accomplishes a similar centering/locating effect for the front cradle, but with the use of factory style TTY bolts. If they used a higher quality fastener like the Tyrol Sport DSK, this would be an outstanding buy @ ~$142.

See below:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw...sfYvNQEGtik_Atu6x-Q3PgYxoCWW4QAvD_BwE#fitment

Purchasing a centering kit like the ones detailed in lines 6 & 7 will remove the guesswork and struggling from properly centering your cradle after it's been dropped.



ALL THAT OUT OF THE WAY, let's jump to why I'm doing an FSB now, instead of the stiffer coilovers I desperately want:

1) I'm poor AF this year. Everything has become unaffordable or unreasonable, and I'm a single income, single parent with a house.

2) My normal mod money, a shamefully small amount, is being used on track time for 3 events March-May.
Seat time is gold. Veterans who auto-x or do HPDEs will verify this if you ask.

...Even the fastest, most heavily modified car needs a driver who knows WTF they're doing, in order to extract the performance potential out of it.

3) I'm very happy with the street manners, ride quality, and isolation of my current setup. It's better than I'd hoped, truly.

...The Sachs dampers have calmed down a LOT in recent months, without ever lacking the ability to control the spring movements over bumps, dips, etc.

...There is no crashing or bouncing behavior to speak of, which to me speaks volumes about the design and ride height of the OE Sport springs.

4) With MacPherson strut suspension setups, stiffer sway bars help preserve your static camber in dynamic turning situations:

...Less body roll means less "camber-loss" in cornering situations. This is VERY important if you're looking to exact the best lap times or strongest corner speeds from your car.

5) I worry I might have buyer's remorse moving to coilovers with solid front strut mounts, due to any increased harshness or noise. This is a gamble I can't afford at the moment.

6) Even with an RSB, I still feel the car has more loft on turn-in and lane changes than it should, particularly from the front half of the car.

7) Adding to #2, these same HPDEs have me craving more body control and faster cornering speeds to reduce my lap times.


Inertia Addicts
The cars and drivers in my HPDE group were VERY fast this last time on 3/15. It was obvious they'd been doing this for some time.

I'm hoping I can make a better showing on the 4/12 Track Night event with the addition of a FSB and some camber mounts, now that I've dusted off the cobwebs from my old track days that ended ~2016.

For how my car behaved on track this month, these minor upgrades should yield a substantial improvement.

And if I'm wrong, no one can say I didn't try!

That's the full explanation.


For context and comparison, you can look over Stormy's current setup below, and how the car is used:

2017 VW GTI SE, DSG, 42k miles
Suspension
-APR 1" RSB
-H&R OE Sport springs for ~20-25mm drop (and no more!)
-Stock Sachs dampers (they're still working well, they're paid for, and I am on a budget tighter than the e-string on Lindsay Sterling's violin)
-Stock strut mounts & bearings (for now) - these were verified in January to be in good working condition as-is
-Moog HD greaseable end-links all around (to eliminate deflection inherent to the stockers when pushed hard)
-Neuspeed 18x8.5" RSE10s wrapped in 245/40R18 Michelin PS4S (weight reduction + GRIP!)

"Stop Me Harder, Baby"
-Powerstop Z23 kevlar-ceramic front pads, clamping Raybestos coated, high-carbon rotors
-RS3 brake ducts going on next week
-Stock "coal-miner's daughter" TRW organic pads out back from "zee jer-menz" (VW OE pads) biting down on the OE rotors

The power mods to the engine are largely irrelevant here, so I won't go into that. We can safely call this a "Stage 2 car" making solid power on 93-octane w/the stock IS20.


Usage
1) The car is driven on the street 80% of the time, with some very fast backroad and canyon driving once a month with my car club.


2) We also go out to our local snakey-canyon dragon road (LCR) twice a month on Sundays; to socialize, and to run our cars along some wicked hairpins and corners.

A surprising amount of 6-figure cars routinely go out there to play and work on their driving.

Most of the folks in my car club are packing Porsches and BMWs with better traction and rotation, plus a Mk6 Golf R on coilovers with the stock K04 on a "kill map," and a #drivermod banging the gears.

There's also a brand new 480hp Ford Mustang Mach 1 on factory Michelin PS Cup 2s wider than a powerlifter's back.

In short, there is no absence of talent or power in this group.


3) I am getting back into HPDEs and will likely do 6 a year, limited only by the Texas heat (May-September), and my budget. aka "Po' A.F."


Preamble complete, the next section will delve into...
-suspension dynamics
-the sliding scale of stiffer springs versus stiffer sway bars to improve handling.
-It will clarify how a larger set of sway bars can impact your car.

And it's gonna go in depth, since this is a heavily discussed subject, yet the threads are filled with 80% conjecture and only 20% actual FSB owners and track hounds who know what they're talking about.

Stand by for the second post...

 

[GoatAutomotive]

Part II: How to reduce body roll, in 2 acts​

Option 1: install stiffer springs and dampers

Option 2: install beefier, stiffer sway bars

*Bonus Option: "I want a race car ride...give me both. My spine and hemorrhoids can take it."

**Front sway bar and rear sway bar will be abbreviated as FSB & RSB throughout this article for simplicity & brevity.**

Reference, stock sway bar sizes on MQB Cars:

Golf 1.8 TSI: 22mm front, 19mm rear

Golf TDI: 22mm front, torsion beam rear

GTI: 24mm front, 20mm rear (ed. - some had a ~21.7 mm RSB, depending on the year)

Golf R: 24mm front, 21.7mm rear (DCC-equipped, per Neuspeed, on a 2015 R)



Cliff's Notes (for the ADD camp) - Upgrading the RSB can be good and helpful for motion control.

Upgrading the front as well (or ideally, at the same time) is truly better, and will produce the most balanced, neutral handling.

...Even on a FWD car.

(go on, fight me)

All challengers of this statement can:
1) Read the supporting evidence below, or
2) Experience a car with both bars upgraded...gliding down a fast, winding road at ludicrous speed

Report back afterward.


INTENTIONS & GOALS (of this section):

1) To explain the physics of stiffer springs vs sways, as they influence a car's cornering behavior, and the inherent compromises to each.

2) To help the newcomers debating which suspension upgrade to tackle first, often for fear of cost, or destroying their ride quality.

3) To cut through the misinformation that circulates the internet about suspension and handling for the VW FWD cars.

(Its contents could likely be applied to other FWD platforms as well, but let's not get ahead of ourselves)


Disclaimer - AWD cars are in a slightly different camp for chassis dynamics, so I will not attempt to speak for the R & 4-Motion folks here.

If you're still with me, and you're curious about suspension dynamics, grab a beer/scotch/whiskey or wine, and enjoy the informative read below.

Coils & Dampers vs. Sways that Play​

In cornering scenarios where one side of the car is loaded up, running thicker sway bars performs the same "function" as stiffer springs:

The sway bar [itself] provides torsional flex and resistance, both HELPING the coils on the car to control body movement, and ACTING as a stiffer spring.

The sway bar is therefore MOST ACTIVE when a cornering load is experienced; or when the car is asked to flex one wheel/axle more than the other side, such as entering a steep driveway.

For this reason, a larger sway bar will be largely transparent on the street in normal driving conditions, on normal roads.

A sudden dip in the road will not be impacted by the sway bar if both tires encounter it at the same time: the bar itself is free to rotate as needed to facilitate uninterrupted travel of the control arms, wheels and tires.

Where the misconception that stiffer sway bars destroy street manners comes from this:​

On UNEVEN road surfaces, where one side of the car is disrupted by bumps, expansion joints or potholes, and the other side is allowed to carry on with its business, you will experience some jittery or sloshing behavior.

Our larger sway bar(s) are again acting like a stiffer spring, though admittedly, even a car with stiffer springs is not "bound" to itself in the same way as a car with larger bars. This is the sliding scale that merits such a discussion.

EXAMPLE, Observed:

One of our local track hounds and top contributors, Tigeo, did a great video on this concept with his GSW that is tracked regularly at VIR.

And he was kind enough to share it here in Post #10, below.

Tigeo runs a ~27mm H&R front bar and a ~25mm rear (ed. - Adam, correct me if I'm mistaken on those dimensions).

He did a short vlog from inside the car and demonstrated that, while turning through an intersection, the car stayed smooth and flat, but some choppy pavement caused the body of the car to shift back and forth, briefly, from the disruption.

This means for folks considering larger sway bars:

1) Can you live with this trade-off, or
2) Can you drive around the issue by being more diligent on where you place your car on the road?



In general, and as we discussed earlier, you can improve your car's dynamic handling by:

1) Moving to stiffer springs and dampers
2) Upgrading the sway bars front & rear, or...(if you seriously track the car or compete in motorsport)
-Do both

I'll address sway bar functions & benefits here, for those of you hearing rumors: some well-founded, and some completely erroneous and armchair, regarding chassis dynamics.


One of the biggest myths about installing a beefier front sway bar is that it will increase understeer and destroy your ride quality.

A larger FSB by itself, with no upgrade to the RSB, this is possible, but not a constant, empirical outcome.

For the first misnomer, no two cars and suspension setups will behave identically, so you cannot say, as a blanket statement, that "adding a larger front bar induces/increases understeer".

The tires, spring rates, ride height, damper valving, alignment settings, sway bar thickness, length of the arms on the SB, vehicle weight distribution, center of gravity, and driver technique ALL play a variable role in how the car behaves for cornering and rotation.

Here's a simplified example most can relate to:

A GTI with softer springs (stock, Driver Gear, E-D, or VWR) will experience more body roll and less "motion control" in corners, because the springs do not have sufficient rate to support the hard cornering loads experienced in a track setting, or on a tight, winding road.

The body roll inherent to such a setup will ask more of the outside tires in cornering, with reduced traction on the inside tires. A good driver can manage this, but maximum cornering speeds (v-Max) will typically be lower than the next setup, defined below:


A car with stiffer coil springs (i.e. coilovers, firmer/adjustable dampers, & higher spring rates) will experience, all other things being equal, greatly reduced body roll and better control than a car on OE suspension, even with no changes to the sway bars.

Most of my readers know this from experience or marketing hype from the parts vendors.

The stiffer suspension is better equipped to support the increased lateral loads experienced on corner entry and apex. Ask any competitive auto-x enthusiast running extremely high spring rates how their car feels in fast transitions.

For many seeking a sportier experience, simply upgrading springs, shocks & struts appropriately, or moving to a proper coilover kit for your driving habits, will be more than adequate, with no further changes needed to the factory sway bars.

"So why touch the sway bars at all?"​

Upgrading sway bars allows you to fine tune the amount of body roll in the car, as well as its turn-in behavior.

It can also allow you to keep a more compliant spring and damper combo on the car if it's your daily/family car.

To the other argument, because stiffer springs and dampers can and will do wonders to aid the car's motion control in corners, lots of folks recommend sway bars as your LAST suspension mod, and not the first. And they're more right than they are wrong.

Feeling slightly confused?

Let me explain...

Stiffer springs are better equipped to compensate for the cornering loads seen in HPDEs and auto-x, but this can have a negative impact on ride quality over bumpy, uneven surfaces when you're driving on the street. Hence the implementation of dynamic dampers on modern cars, to mitigate this harshness, and only stiffen the dampers when the driver or conditions demand it.

How significant the harshness from a stiffer suspension is proportionate to how "stiff" the spring rates are compared to stock.

Keep this in your hat.


Now let's switch and discuss how a stiffer sway bar will help or hurt your driving experience:

Many of you are just fine running the stock front bar(s) and upgrading the rears, if you adjust your driving accordingly.

On FWDs with a larger RSB, it will become much easier to step the @$$ of the car out in a hard turn or corner, even if that wasn't your intention.

This is what people mean when they say "adding a thicker rear bar increases oversteering behavior."

Some folks appreciate this new dynamic because there is less body roll, and the car feels more "playful" or planted out back, but it's imperative you understand and experiment how the car behaves with "only the RSB" upgraded" if you go this route.

Below is a simple but effective reminder diagram below for folks who confuse the two, or who are new to suspension dynamics.

I highly encourage those from the "RSB only" camp to push their cars hard in a circle or slalom, in a large, open parking lot with no lamp posts or parked vehicles, to find the speed and steering angle at which the @$$ of the car comes around.

It can and does happen, so you want it to happen in a safe environment with no other cars around to create the condition. This way you can learn the threshold leading up to it, and how to control it when the rear slides (something most of us are surprised by in a FWD platform).

Simple video explanation in under 2-minutes:

Here is an article you can read to better understand how sway bars work.
https://www.streetmusclemag.com/tec...ral-grip-sway-bars-actually-theyre-important/

 

[GoatAutomotive]

Stopping for tonight. Invested more time than intended.

I'll update this thread periodically after my new FSB arrives, and I can road test it thoroughly, and further test it at my local track on 4/12.

Hope this helps more folks than it confuses.

I am genuinely excited to add this simple mod to my build and enhance the cornering stability, with [hopefully] minimal impact to ride comfort and family hauling duties.

 

[Salami]

https://www.034motorsport.com/docs/...t-sway-bar-install-guide-diy-034-402-1009.pdf

Be careful using the sway bar D bracket torque specs from these instructions. The specs for the 034 bracket are double of the stock D bracket. I ruined a stock type bracket from using the torque spec. All the other torque specs are fine.

 

[tigeo]

buT a FSB wIlL cAUSe mORE unDERSTeer bRo.

 

[manu97]

buT a FSB wIlL cAUSe mORE unDERSTeer bRo.

Source: bRo tRuSt mE bRo

 

[tigeo]

Source: bRo tRuSt mE bRo

From a bro who hasn't ever pushed their car enough in a corner to even know what any of this is.

 

[GoatAutomotive]

Stolen: found a very insightful post from June 2022 from our favorite GSW track hound. Once again, thank you, Adam!


“Just got the GSW back from the shop this week from some work w/r to this topic. This go-around I had some suspension/chassis/mount bits installed to go along with my H&R Sport springs, Bilstein B8s, H&R r. sway bar, Moog r. sway bar end links, 034 engine/trans mounts, and 034 r. subframe inserts I already had on the car:

• H&R 27mm adjustable f. sway bar w/034 adj. end links
• 034 dogbone pucks, upper/lower inserts, and pendulum arm (replaced my APR lower insert)
• Tyrol Sport front subframe deadset kit
• Superpro aluminum lower control arms (-0.5 camber/+1.0 caster)
• Eurosport camber strut mount (-0.8 camber)

Alignment specs post-install:

F. camber -2.0 (so -0.7 from the lowering springs alone)
F. caster 7.9
F. toe 0.16
R. camber -1.6
R. toe 0.15

Just hitting some of my local twisty spots, on-ramps etc. for some hard cornering testing the car certainly feels rock-solid as in “holy shit”! Should be fun at the track and at AVF/ToTD/all other dragon roads. Very little body roll now from the FSB – it’s set on the stiffest setting, it’s quite noticeable but I don’t feel like anything w/r to balance front to rear is off. The turn-in is v. different feeling with the additional camber and caster, “laser sharp” would be a good description. The car feels v. neutral w/r to over/under steer.”

 

[GoatAutomotive]

Be careful using the sway bar D bracket torque specs from these instructions. The specs for the 034 bracket are double of the stock D bracket. I ruined a stock type bracket from using the torque spec. All the other torque specs are fine.

Thank you for catching this.

I normally go off stock torque specs, I only included the 034 PDF as a helpful supplement. That sucks that one wrong torque spec in that article can ruin somebody’s day.

I’ll have to go back to the article and verify the info now.

For now, I went back and revised my original post with a disclaimer to always consult factory VW torque specs.

 

[tigeo]

After having these mods now for a while, the FSB is a v. good mod to help control body roll and therefore camber gain through hard cornering without having to have really stiff linear springs for daily use. It's a 10/10 suspension mod to me. The FSB thread is a good one to reference and I believe I have a video discussing it and how it impacts daily driving on my YouTube channel (like/sub of course please!).

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/front-sway-bars.413178/

 

[GoatAutomotive]

Thank you, Adam. The California Oracle couldn't find that video of yours with any of my search methods.

It's precisely what we need in this thread.

There was another SB thread somewhere where another fella (not your GSW pic)...posted a pair of photos of his car, in the exact same corner, at the same angle, with red and green lines showing the difference between stock FSB and a larger FSB.

I think he mentioned the photographer just happened to grab that shot. If you come across that photo, please throw it in here. It's a super helpful reference aid.

 

[tigeo]

Thank you, Adam. The California Oracle couldn't find that video of yours with any of my search methods.

It's precisely what we need in this thread.

There was another SB thread somewhere where another fella (not your GSW pic)...posted a pair of photos of his car, in the exact same corner, at the same angle, with red and green lines showing the difference between stock FSB and a larger FSB.

I think he mentioned the photographer just happened to grab that shot. If you come across that photo, please throw it in here. It's a super helpful reference aid.

It's post #45 in the link/my FSB post.

 

[GoatAutomotive]

I found this thread and photo I was looking for and I’m tying it in here. It’s only a 2-pager and the first page has everything folks would need.

Pic of one of our members coming around Oak Tree (hard corner at VIR):

(Ed. - this is the best comparative photo I have seen for our cars, and the photo on the right is when he already had the beefier H&R RSB)

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/front-sway-bar-is-it-worth-it.416924/

 

[GoatAutomotive]

New arrival today.

See attached photo (of my huge package).

How I feel inside…

Like if you think 28mm will be enough to satisfy her…






(The GTI. What were you thinking of?)

 

[GoatAutomotive]

I’m not Canadian, but today was Boxing Day…