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Smoke Factory at the track.

donefor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
usa
Took the car to Summit Point Main yesterday, driven there many times but first time in this car. First morning session, first hot lap, i notice coming out of 5 (a slow, sharp left through about 110 degrees that follows a heavy braking zone) that there's a bit of smoke out the back. I thought, hm, maybe this is what i have been warned about regarding the need for a catch can on a tracked Mk7? Next lap i get in there a little bit hotter and i leave a small cloud in the same spot... not sure whether the car bogged a little or i just lifted out of surprise at the amount of smoke, but i took it in the paddock and looked under the hood to see if any obvious leakage or hose blown off, etc but nothing of the sort, so back out. This time i warm up a couple laps and when i go in there 9/10 i leave a large cumulus cloud and get black flagged for being a vision hazard.

As i interpreted Hoon's excellent explanation of why a catch can is useful at the track, i figured this was probably the stock oil separator being overwhelmed under heavy braking and then dumping excessive oil into the TIP over a short period of time and while i'm accelerating out of 5. Figured my day was done since i didn't have anything laying around to improvise with, but a guy there offered a piece of hose that i could route the oil separator outlet to a makeshift catch can with. After finally getting that oil separator outlet fitting that satan designed off the TIP, whipped something up with gorilla tape, diet coke bottle, zip ties, and a few blocks of wood to keep this sweet catch bottle in place, lol, and what do you know, it worked for the last few minutes of the second session! Never threw a code either, hm. When i went back in, i also recalled that the right-hander turn 1-2 complex at the end of the front straight does not cause this poor behavior, it's just in that left hander. Seem to recall the Mk6 mill having oil starvation issues but that was with long right handers IIRC? Hm.

Third session, first hot lap, big cloud. Take it back in, check the bottle, the gorilla tape holding the factory fitting to the hose has let go of the hose. There's almost no oil anywhere, though, like one or two drops. Hmmm. I decided that fitting was stupid (it is) and cut it off, then held the little hose in the big hose with a clamp i found. Made sure the little hose wasn't getting crushed and wrapped it with plenty of tape to make sure it wouldn't leak. Went out into the open session, and it starts smoking like a mofo again! Flagger in the next station didn't throw the black flag again, though i could tell she wanted to behind that "you ought park that shit son" look, so i did. DIY CC was still all together and there still wasn't any oil in the bottle, so i hypothesize that the oil separator failed (though i'm not certain of how they fail) and wasn't venting at all... however i'm not sure how this would cause the big cloud if there is no oil being dumped into the intake tract... hmmm... any ideas? TIA.
 

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777-300ER

Go Kart Newbie
Location
St Joesph Mi
When the pcv gets clogged crankcase pressure can surge and push oil through the turbocharger. Especially with some shaft play.
 

wy2sl0

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Ontario
I'm having an identical issue, just bought a catch can.
My analysis is different. Hard right turns do it for me. Also, I like you, checked the PCV and inlet and there was minimal oil. It was still smoking.
I then checked the cold side of the IC and the throttle pipe...bingo; a pool of oil.
The hot side has no restriction and it is fed downwards by gravity from the turbo outlet so you won't see a pool there, it'll be on the cold side. There is probably a ton of residual oil left in your pipes.
 

donefor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
usa
When the pcv gets clogged crankcase pressure can surge and push oil through the turbocharger. Especially with some shaft play.

Thanks for the info, turbo had no shaft play beforehand and hopefully still doesn't but pushing oil through the bearing seals doesn't sound healthy to begin with... :(
 
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donefor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
usa
I'm having an identical issue, just bought a catch can.
My analysis is different. Hard right turns do it for me. Also, I like you, checked the PCV and inlet and there was minimal oil. It was still smoking.
I then checked the cold side of the IC and the throttle pipe...bingo; a pool of oil.
The hot side has no restriction and it is fed downwards by gravity from the turbo outlet so you won't see a pool there, it'll be on the cold side. There is probably a ton of residual oil left in your pipes.

Interesting that it happens on RH turns for you. And yeah, i'll bet there's a lot of residual oil in the pipes, about 1/4-1/3 quart got transferred from crankcase to there via das wunderbar separator :mad:

VWR CC on the way ;)
 

aaronc7

Autocross Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
17 S3
Is the PCV system a single vent off the valve cover to the pre-turbo intake pipe? Or is it a 2 way system with another vent somewhere else? Anyone got a PCV diagram of sorts?
 

donefor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
usa
Is the PCV system a single vent off the valve cover to the pre-turbo intake pipe? Or is it a 2 way system with another vent somewhere else? Anyone got a PCV diagram of sorts?

Excellent question, i went searching for an English version of the SSP 606 and couldn't find one, again. That's the VAG self study program for the EA888 gen 3 1.8 and 2.0 liter motors that explains everything with diagrams, they're easy to find translated poorly from French, lol.

In any case, i'm feeling kinda dumb for not having figured this out already... from the russian ssp and google translate, the oil separator channels oil to the intake ports through channels in the cylinder head while operating in "atmospheric mode" and channels to the TIP while operating in "boost mode".
 

aaronc7

Autocross Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
17 S3
Found the document, thanks for that. Yeah the translations are a little funny but good diagrams at least. I don't even have one of these cars yet, just trying to learn some stuff.. looks like a standard 2 way system but quite different than how other 4 cylinders go about it that I've seen.

The only time I've had extreme oil consumption or smoking issues on the track was during heavy braking periods (or I should say right after heavy braking spots)-- oil pools up in a bad spot somewhere in the in the head(s), that oil basically completely covers the vent port/tube and then the extreme vacuum in the intake manifold just literally sucks it out. I filled up a big catch can in 2-3 laps in my C5, like half a quart of oil, lol.

So with that in mind in your case, I would suspect that maybe the oil is getting sucked into the intake manifold in this high vacuum braking scenario. Then maybe due to the heavy braking G forces, that oil is making its way to the front of the intake manifold/TB area (which might explain oil dripping/pooling in the cold side piping long term). Then when you get back on the gas, it starts sucking up the liquid oil = smoke cloud. And in your case, if the oil wasn't going into your coke bottle... it has to be making it's way into the engine some other way and that is the only other route.

From what I can tell it looks like a lot of these aftermarket catch can system remove the "2 way" functionality of the stock setup and makes it always vent pre-turbo? Hard to tell from the pics on their websites and they don't always get real technical in the description so it's kinda hard to tell. But in that case, by simply removing the "vacuum mode" of the pcv system you may fix a lot of those track issues. On my C5 that was basically the fix... I just made it purely vent to atmosphere, but same idea. I think removing the 2 way functionality has some drawbacks for a street car...but track application it makes sense.

Anyways, just spit balling and throwing some ideas out there, don't mean to derail the thread or anything.
 

777-300ER

Go Kart Newbie
Location
St Joesph Mi
Found the document, thanks for that. Yeah the translations are a little funny but good diagrams at least. I don't even have one of these cars yet, just trying to learn some stuff.. looks like a standard 2 way system but quite different than how other 4 cylinders go about it that I've seen.

The only time I've had extreme oil consumption or smoking issues on the track was during heavy braking periods (or I should say right after heavy braking spots)-- oil pools up in a bad spot somewhere in the in the head(s), that oil basically completely covers the vent port/tube and then the extreme vacuum in the intake manifold just literally sucks it out. I filled up a big catch can in 2-3 laps in my C5, like half a quart of oil, lol.

So with that in mind in your case, I would suspect that maybe the oil is getting sucked into the intake manifold in this high vacuum braking scenario. Then maybe due to the heavy braking G forces, that oil is making its way to the front of the intake manifold/TB area (which might explain oil dripping/pooling in the cold side piping long term). Then when you get back on the gas, it starts sucking up the liquid oil = smoke cloud. And in your case, if the oil wasn't going into your coke bottle... it has to be making it's way into the engine some other way and that is the only other route.

From what I can tell it looks like a lot of these aftermarket catch can system remove the "2 way" functionality of the stock setup and makes it always vent pre-turbo? Hard to tell from the pics on their websites and they don't always get real technical in the description so it's kinda hard to tell. But in that case, by simply removing the "vacuum mode" of the pcv system you may fix a lot of those track issues. On my C5 that was basically the fix... I just made it purely vent to atmosphere, but same idea. I think removing the 2 way functionality has some drawbacks for a street car...but track application it makes sense.

Anyways, just spit balling and throwing some ideas out there, don't mean to derail the thread or anything.

Honestly that makes much more sense than my idea. There is a port on the front side of the pcv near where the FPR tap is at. PCV diaphragm gets torn due to extreme overfilling of oil in the system and over pressure and under acceleration gets sucked straight through into the I'M? I know my VWR kit basically uses a pass through on this port with a banjo bolt and fitting and the FPR vac line has no possible contact with oil. I should dissect one of my failed PCV's and see how the the diphraghms look.
 

donefor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
usa
Found the document, thanks for that. Yeah the translations are a little funny but good diagrams at least. I don't even have one of these cars yet, just trying to learn some stuff.. looks like a standard 2 way system but quite different than how other 4 cylinders go about it that I've seen.

The only time I've had extreme oil consumption or smoking issues on the track was during heavy braking periods (or I should say right after heavy braking spots)-- oil pools up in a bad spot somewhere in the in the head(s), that oil basically completely covers the vent port/tube and then the extreme vacuum in the intake manifold just literally sucks it out. I filled up a big catch can in 2-3 laps in my C5, like half a quart of oil, lol.

So with that in mind in your case, I would suspect that maybe the oil is getting sucked into the intake manifold in this high vacuum braking scenario. Then maybe due to the heavy braking G forces, that oil is making its way to the front of the intake manifold/TB area (which might explain oil dripping/pooling in the cold side piping long term). Then when you get back on the gas, it starts sucking up the liquid oil = smoke cloud. And in your case, if the oil wasn't going into your coke bottle... it has to be making it's way into the engine some other way and that is the only other route.

From what I can tell it looks like a lot of these aftermarket catch can system remove the "2 way" functionality of the stock setup and makes it always vent pre-turbo? Hard to tell from the pics on their websites and they don't always get real technical in the description so it's kinda hard to tell. But in that case, by simply removing the "vacuum mode" of the pcv system you may fix a lot of those track issues. On my C5 that was basically the fix... I just made it purely vent to atmosphere, but same idea. I think removing the 2 way functionality has some drawbacks for a street car...but track application it makes sense.

Anyways, just spit balling and throwing some ideas out there, don't mean to derail the thread or anything.

Seems the cans that utilize their own PCV plate tend to direct oil back to the pan and vapors to the TIP with baffles. Plates and holes, vs. the OEM separator springs & diaphragms. Pictures of the VWR PCV plate & "doghouse" are self explanatory, there really is nothing to it.
 

aaronc7

Autocross Champion
Location
USA
Car(s)
17 S3
Yeah, I mean the goal of the stock setup is the same, it just seems the issue is the whole strong vacuum suction thing. Which has it's place for better removing contaminants out of the oil in 99% of engine operation, but smoking on the track is no fun either. I still can't get over spending $600 for a catch can system lol.
 

WhyNotZoidberg?

Ready to race!
Location
Chi-Town
Car(s)
2017 GTI, 2015 TDI

donefor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
usa
Installed the VWR can last week and haven't tracked it yet so don't know if it'll do what it's supposed to, but FWIW the fitment was very good, and only needed to remove coils from 3 & 4 to do it.

Worth noting! they changed the PCV plate design so that the "doghouse" bolts on from the top as any fule noe, instead of from the bottom like their previous design that is an obvious disaster waiting to happen. And now the line to the N90 is via barbed banjo bolt in top of PCV plate, which is a tight fit between barb & plate but doable - and does not require reusing the spring clamps, the hose will keep itself in place.

One more thing, i'm not sure if it's a placebo effect but my exhaust seems to spit and burble more on shifts and lifts now. Not sure why this might be the case but i'm not complaining.
 

TheSwede

Ready to race!
Location
Sweden, Halmstad
Car(s)
Golf7 Alltrack/Cupra
I haven't detected any smoke but extended oil consumotion during track Days.

My tread in the matter:

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33373


My son now owns the Golf R 2014 that the tread it is about. Now I have Seat Leon Cupra R 310 which have the same engine as Golf R. Will track it for the first time soon.

/Peter
 
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