My AutoX journey

[mrmatto]

Edit: Changing this thread into a bit of a log for my autocross journey as a beginner just learning the ropes and just learning this car, starting with an introductory driving school.
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This weekend, I participated in an APEX Performance Driving School, Level 1, geared toward Autocross. The instructors were various top SCCA drivers, including some national champions. The class took place at St. Marys Airport in St. Marys, GA.

Me:

• Zero autocross experience, and zero performance driving experience with a car (I have done some karting)
• 2015 GTI 2-door, DSG, Michelin AS3+ tires, EBC Redstuffs, ECS rear brace, CTS FMIC, APR Stage 1 low torque tune

All skill levels were present, from complete novices (me!) to seasoned racers. My favorite was the Porsche GT4. Good god. Everyone there was super nice and just wanted to geek out about car stuff. The instructors tailored their instruction to what you needed help with. For me, having never autocrossed or raced my GTI, I wanted to learn my car's limits, some crucial driving techniques, and to get a feel for my next mods.

The class consisted of figure-8 runs, a slalom course, and an autocross challenge.

Figure-8:
I was the very first car out on this course in the morning. It was cold and it was wet from overnight rain, so being a FWD car with A/S tires, it was definitely challenging at first until I got a good handle on my limits. At first, the instructor was overly-encouraging of getting on the gas coming out of the turn, but it became clear this was just causing understeer, so I backed off. It was very frustrating at first. And with the tune and wet asphalt, it was just pure spin to the next turn anyways. The instructor took the wheel for a couple laps so I could feel what the limits are. He tried to do a little bit of trail braking to induce some oversteer, but stability control kicked in (more on that later) and cut the power.

But as we ran the course more and more, I got better and better at it. I learned how to stay closer to the cones, when to brake, where the ABS threshold was, how to roll on the throttle so the turbo kick didn't rip the tires out, and very importantly: how to look ahead. Such a crucial skill that I spent the day trying to drill into my head. Look ahead, turn your head and look at your exits, plan your exit.

It became very clear in this first session that my tires were a big weak point. Granted, the track was wet, but still, traction was very hard to come by.

Also, even though the EBC Redstuff pads are pretty good, they started to fade after several back-to-back loops. They just aren't mean for repeated high speed braking like you would experience on an open track. I'm sure my stock brake fluid had something to do with that too. To be fair, I wasn't the only car that day who experienced brake degradation on that figure-8 challenge. It was pretty brutal. A Tesla came off with big smoke plumes coming from his brakes, and a couple other drivers had smoking brakes after that session too.

A pretty fun one to work the cones, especially watching the RWD vehicles trying to push the exit speed.

In between:

• Shopped for tires
• Pulled up my OBD app to fully disable stability control (soooo much better)

Slalom course:
What fun! This had so many challenges in it and gave me more of a taste of an autocross course. It was a short sprint, then a slalom, then a hairpin turn, then a Chicago box, then sprint to the finish. To make it extra challenging, the start and the turn had some loose gravel.

This is where I really got a feel for the car's limits, because the track was finally dry! Learning how to enter the slalom and get the right timing with turning was a revelation and I could feel it when I got it right. The loose hairpin turn was a fun way to practice some trail braking and oversteer. Disabling stability control (instead of having it in "Sport" mode) was key here. It didn't cut my throttle if I brought the back end out. Then transitioning into the Chicago box from the turn was easy peasy for me as long as I got my braking timing down. Brakes performed well. Took down a couple cones in the slalom, but such is life.

This one was really fun to work the cones, seeing how other drivers drove it and made mistakes. I was surprised how much I learned by just watching other drivers screw up.

Autocross challenge:
The instructors set up a full autocross course that included some of the elements we practiced, plus some new ones. We got 12 runs total each, which was awesome, and they walked the course with all of us beforehand. I did 2 runs with the instructor, 2 runs with the instructor driving, 5 runs with instruction and focusing on cutting my time, then 3 solo runs.

The course (if I recall correctly...): Turn start, slalom, gate, hairpin turn, super tight Chicago box, wallom, high speed turn, gate, slalom, slalom, hairpin, wallom, sprint to the end. I love love LOVED this. It was a pretty fast course, which I greatly enjoyed. A nice mix of speed and technical elements. Track was dry, tires were warm(ish), brakes performed perfectly. The course was tricky in some places because there was a high-speed slalom entrance on a gravelly patch. Aside from 2 runs where I got sideways there, I improved my times every run.

Very fun to watch other cars run this, especially the loose slalom section. A few spinning Miatas.

Wrap-up:

• I left this event surprisingly sore and tired, yet inspired and energized to learn more and drive more.
• The instructors (I had 2 different ones) both complemented my smoothness and lines, but both noted I needed to work on being more aggressive with braking, and that I need more traction. The instructors were amazing teachers.
• Key skills learned:
  • Looking ahead
  • Threshold braking
  • Slalom timing
  • Edit: also, string theory and using that to brake a little late into a turn to load up the front tires.
• The GTI on stock suspension can get a little oversteer when you trail brake it or lift off the throttle in a turn, but not nearly as easily or neatly as my Mazda 3 did. I do miss that. I think a rear sway would help this. I need to practice it more for sure.
• XDS on medium felt right and gave the car the most neutral feel (IMHO). But at speed with A/S tires and no LSD, XDS settings probably don't do much.
• The Redstuffs were excellent for Autcross, but absolutely would not hold up on a real track.
• Tires. Tires. Tires. Good god I need better tires. Shopping for summers now... The AS3+'s seem to have a limited window where they do well, and I kept pushing them outside of that window. They're excellent AS tires -- the sidewalls are stiff and they did not roll over at all. Stayed very responsive. -- but not good Autocross tires and struggle to do two things at once.
• The APR Stage 1 low torque tune was really great because its powerband extends all the way to redline. So, I was able to keep it in 2nd gear the whole run and not worry about revving out of the power band. On a different tune or stock, I might have been tempted to shift into 3rd gear at times, which would have been an extra element to think about. Oil temp never got above 234*F and quickly cooled back to ~210*F after runs.
• Tires.
• Did I mention tires?
• Lastly, tires.

 

[Luva]

OP, I enjoyed your write-up. Glad you had fun at the event. As you already figured out, 200 TW tires are mandatory if you want to be remotely competitive in most autocross clubs. I'd rather autocross a Toyota Yaris with sticky tires than a 300+ horsepower monster with all seasons. Did you upgrade the tires yet? If so, I am curious what you went with.

It's been a few years since I've been to an autocross event. I do miss it. But, I've been doing HDPE events as of late. I think going from autocross to track events is a nice progression. I think it better to learn car control and the limits in 2nd gear on a large parking lot rather than at triple digit speed on a professional race track with concrete barriers.

 

[krs]

Just bite the bullet and get a separate set of wheels and tires. Sounds like you’re hooked, so you’ll be doing it eventually anyways.

Nice write up.

 

[mrmatto]

OP, I enjoyed your write-up. Glad you had fun at the event. As you already figured out, 200 TW tires are mandatory if you want to be remotely competitive in most autocross clubs. I'd rather autocross a Toyota Yaris with sticky tires than a 300+ horsepower monster with all seasons. Did you upgrade the tires yet? If so, I am curious what you went with.

It's been a few years since I've been to an autocross event. I do miss it. But, I've been doing HDPE events as of late. I think going from autocross to track events is a nice progression. I think it better to learn car control and the limits in 2nd gear on a large parking lot rather than at triple digit speed on a professional race track with concrete barriers.

I upgraded to Yoko Advan Apex V601’s. They’re a good dual-duty tire at 280tw. Decent on the street, and good grip on the course without falling apart or chunking. They’ve been treating me well at the last 2 events.

I’m not really expecting to be competitive in STH since I’m running stock suspension. But I’m competitive against myself. Will most likely end up with a dedicated track/wheel set.

 

[mrmatto]

Just bite the bullet and get a separate set of wheels and tires. Sounds like you’re hooked, so you’ll be doing it eventually anyways.

Nice write up.

Thanks. Agreed. I don’t think there’s any way around it. I want to keep pushing at the track, but I’m also stubborn about ride quality on the street. For now, these v601’s are getting the job done well enough, but ultimately 2 sets is the only way.

 

[mrmatto]

Update: 2 autocross events under my belt now since the driving school. I have sharpened my “look ahead” skills but still need to work on that. I’m feeling more confident in how hard I can push the car. I have a better feel for how the car reacts if I overcook a corner entry, and as of yesterday know exactly what it takes to get sideways and spin out in a slalom . (Don’t be a dumbass like me and tap your brakes mid-slalom if you enter too fast. Just straighten out so you can brake safely and take the DNF.)

Since the school, I have swapped my tires to 280tw Yokohama Advan Apex V601. Significantly stickier than the all-seasons. This has improved my straight-line traction 1000x and my cornering traction 500x. Night and day difference, and I can actually put the stage 1 power down without much fuss. They’re holding up well under track abuse so far with 2 intense events, with no chunking, and hold their shape with very little rollover.

That being said, these tires have been disappointing on the street. They’re decent and acceptable, but the tradeoff for the trackability is a rough ride and more refinement on uneven roads. I can easily see after this season getting a dedicated track tire/wheel set so I can run nicer summers for daily driving.

Pushing the car, I discovered at my first event I was getting really bad oil smoke and misfires after hard braking and a hard turn. Classic PCV oil surge for these cars. Ultimately, the solution was a simple BMS inline catch can to catch the spillover. It worked perfectly at event #2 with no smoke or power cuts.

I think a stiffer rear sway bar is my best next move. The car does not easily rotate and heavily biases toward understeer. But a driver mod would help too. I was big-time over cooking my corner entries all day, which was contributing to my understeer problem, so I can definitely improve there. But it still feels like the handling doesn’t match the capabilities of the stage 1 power.

Onward and upward. Big thanks to @GTIfan99 who has been giving me helpful advice along the way, and is an awesome example to watch at these events tearing up the course.

And now some action shots:

 

[GTIfan99]

Update: 2 autocross events under my belt now since the driving school. I have sharpened my “look ahead” skills but still need to work on that. I’m feeling more confident in how hard I can push the car. I have a better feel for how the car reacts if I overcook a corner entry, and as of yesterday know exactly what it takes to get sideways and spin out in a slalom . (Don’t be a dumbass like me and tap your brakes mid-slalom if you enter too fast. Just straighten out so you can brake safely and take the DNF.)

Since the school, I have swapped my tires to 280tw Yokohama Advan Apex V601. Significantly stickier than the all-seasons. This has improved my straight-line traction 1000x and my cornering traction 500x. Night and day difference, and I can actually put the stage 1 power down without much fuss. They’re holding up well under track abuse so far with 2 intense events, with no chunking, and hold their shape with very little rollover.

That being said, these tires have been disappointing on the street. They’re decent and acceptable, but the tradeoff for the trackability is a rough ride and more refinement on uneven roads. I can easily see after this season getting a dedicated track tire/wheel set so I can run nicer summers for daily driving.

Pushing the car, I discovered at my first event I was getting really bad oil smoke and misfires after hard braking and a hard turn. Classic PCV oil surge for these cars. Ultimately, the solution was a simple BMS inline catch can to catch the spillover. It worked perfectly at event #2 with no smoke or power cuts.

I think a stiffer rear sway bar is my best next move. The car does not easily rotate and heavily biases toward understeer. But a driver mod would help too. I was big-time over cooking my corner entries all day, which was contributing to my understeer problem, so I can definitely improve there. But it still feels like the handling doesn’t match the capabilities of the stage 1 power.

Onward and upward. Big thanks to @GTIfan99 who has been giving me helpful advice along the way, and is an awesome example to watch at these events tearing up the course.

And now some action shots:
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You're doing awesome out there. RSB is 100% your best next move. Until then, add a little more rear pressure will help a little.

 

[mrmatto]

You're doing awesome out there. RSB is 100% your best next move. Until then, add a little more rear pressure will help a little.

Thanks. Good tip on the air pressure. I've been so focused on getting just enough pressure that the tires don't roll over, that I hadn't considered the difference in pressure front-to-rear. I'll try that next time. I also need to cool off my corner entry speed a tad.

 

[krs]

Thanks. Good tip on the air pressure. I've been so focused on getting just enough pressure that the tires don't roll over, that I hadn't considered the difference in pressure front-to-rear. I'll try that next time. I also need to cool off my corner entry speed a tad.

I stepped up my split on tire pressure this event, 8 psi between front and back. Definitely noticeable. I'm not saying jump into that, but you it does do something.

 

[GTIfan99]

Too high in the rear, and you do get oversteer, it's just snap oversteer. Not fun. I'd try 43 or 44 in the rear. 37 or 38 front. Any higher in the rear, you risk snap oversteer. Any less in the front, you right folding the tire over and causing understeer.

It's always a balance.

Definitely get the rear bar on there, then I'll help you play with alignment. Rear toe can have a dramatic effect.

 

[mrmatto]

Too high in the rear, and you do get oversteer, it's just snap oversteer. Not fun. I'd try 43 or 44 in the rear. 37 or 38 front. Any higher in the rear, you risk snap oversteer. Any less in the front, you right folding the tire over and causing understeer.

It's always a balance.

Definitely get the rear bar on there, then I'll help you play with alignment. Rear toe can have a dramatic effect.

Yeah I need ~38-39 in the front to keep these tires stable with no rollover.

It's funny you mention rear toe. One of the Civic SI guys I attended the Apex driving school with had terrible snap oversteer, leading to him spinning off the course a few times. He was at the Saturday event and mentioned how he completely fixed it by adding a little toe-in.

 

[GTIfan99]

Yeah I need ~38-39 in the front to keep these tires stable with no rollover.

It's funny you mention rear toe. One of the Civic SI guys I attended the Apex driving school with had terrible snap oversteer, leading to him spinning off the course a few times. He was at the Saturday event and mentioned how he completely fixed it by adding a little toe-in.

Yep, and conversely, going the other direction adds oversteer.

With stock suspension and 26mm rear bar, I ran a little toe out in front .15 per side, zero toe rear and -1.8 camber rear. It was butter. It allowed lower rear pressures, which gave me progress oversteer.

 

[mrmatto]

Yep, and conversely, going the other direction adds oversteer.

With stock suspension and 26mm rear bar, I ran a little toe out in front .15 per side, zero toe rear and -1.8 camber. It was butter. It allowed lower rear pressures, which gave me progress oversteer.

I'm sitting at 0.08 rear toe right now. Rear camber is -1.45 / -1.18. Is that adjustable on stock suspension?

Once I add the rear sway, I'll see how it feels and then we can start the tweaks

 

[krs]

The rear has eccentric bolts, which allows for some adjustability.

 

[GTIfan99]

I'm sitting at 0.08 rear toe right now. Rear camber is -1.45 / -1.18. Is that adjustable on stock suspension?

Once I add the rear sway, I'll see how it feels and then we can start the tweaks

Rear camber is adjustable. Front isn't, you'd need camber plates.

One thing I've learned with this platform. No matter how much front camber you do or don't have, the car seems to want -1.5 to -1.8 in the rear. It stabilizes the rear in hard transitions, where toe seems have more effect on rotation under trail braking, steady state and at corner exit on throttle.