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Mk8 R

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
My point is, when manufactures moved from hydraulic to 'fly by wire' a lot of them put no effort into making a 'better user experience'.

My brother has a M240i for example, but the tuning of the steering compared to the M2 is numb. He mentioned my fly by wire steering in the R is WAY better than his M240i because you never know exactly where the wheels are. There is no feedback to the user - that can easily be incorporated by putting some resistance and tuning it. Another terrible example is Infiniti/Nissan and what makes the Porsche 911 that much more better of a drive then a GT-R. Add that type of feedback to the gas pedal or brake pedal as well. So for EVs I get the instant torque thing, so the gas pedal is the biggest issue. The brakes though felt very number where it felt like a 50% or 100% - maybe it was the Model 3 I had, but where I believe the hydraulic based R's you have that broad range depending on how much pressure you apply
Hang on, your terms are misleading. No one has fly by wire steering, it's just electric vs hydraulic boost, there's still very much a physical connection between the steering wheel, steering rack and front wheels in every car. And the M2 and M240i both have EPS, but different ZF motors, so there is a different feel, but not a different method. The 1M had HPS, but then so did the 135i.

Infiniti has been the only company to actually offer brake by wire, it's an option on the G70 and it has a comical physical backup system anyway. It is remarkably bad though, which is why they offer a normal hydraulic setup too. Tesla, like every other company not named Infiniti uses a hydraulic brake setup with a master cylinder connected directly to the pedal on one side and the calipers on the other. It's the one piece of a Tesla that needs regular maintenance though, and Elon has mentioned frequently that he'd like to find a work around, but he's also said that the backup requirements do not make it worthwhile to do brake by wire. What you're likely feeling in odd brake pedal feel of EV's and hybrids is the regenerative braking effect which allows the electric motors to provide the majority of braking force, but there's still very much a traditional hydraulic brake system in every EV and hybrid.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
Completely different topic on my the MK8, do we have a 48V electric system in the MK7?

https://www.borgwarner.com/technologies/awd-cross-axle-systems

Came across this today: eRDM appears to be the 'technical name' of the new system in the MK8. I think that system using the 48V system won't allow us to use it in the MK7? So we are the last generation to have the Haldex couplers? Technical white paper, its very interesting actually. The response chart is quite interesting near the end vs the traditional systems we have seen

https://cdn.borgwarner.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/2017-whitepaper-borgwarner-48v-torque-vectoring-erdm-en.pdf?sfvrsn=92b3b23c_8#:~:text=enters torque vectoring mode.,outstanding driving dynamics and stability.
The Mk7 certainly doesn't, but I've also seen nothing to suggest that the Mk8 does either. Most of the items listed in that link are related to the longitudinal quattro system though, not Haldex, which the Mk8 R continues to run, just gen 6 instead of gen 5 which the Mk7 uses.
 

RudyH

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Kitchener, ON
The Mk7 certainly doesn't, but I've also seen nothing to suggest that the Mk8 does either. Most of the items listed in that link are related to the longitudinal quattro system though, not Haldex, which the Mk8 R continues to run, just gen 6 instead of gen 5 which the Mk7 uses.
So that is likely why the new eRDM will never work in the MK7. The MK8 is 48 volt according to VW media anyway. Here is an article stating it is the first Golf to get the 48 volt system.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news...l be the first,not the first electrified Golf.

I wasn't 100% sure on the MK7 as there was the e-Golf (and the A3 e-tron)
 

RudyH

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Kitchener, ON
Hang on, your terms are misleading. No one has fly by wire steering, it's just electric vs hydraulic boost, there's still very much a physical connection between the steering wheel, steering rack and front wheels in every car. And the M2 and M240i both have EPS, but different ZF motors, so there is a different feel, but not a different method. The 1M had HPS, but then so did the 135i.

Infiniti has been the only company to actually offer brake by wire, it's an option on the G70 and it has a comical physical backup system anyway. It is remarkably bad though, which is why they offer a normal hydraulic setup too. Tesla, like every other company not named Infiniti uses a hydraulic brake setup with a master cylinder connected directly to the pedal on one side and the calipers on the other. It's the one piece of a Tesla that needs regular maintenance though, and Elon has mentioned frequently that he'd like to find a work around, but he's also said that the backup requirements do not make it worthwhile to do brake by wire. What you're likely feeling in odd brake pedal feel of EV's and hybrids is the regenerative braking effect which allows the electric motors to provide the majority of braking force, but there's still very much a traditional hydraulic brake system in every EV and hybrid.

well....let's agree it's still not hydraulic...when I had my B8 S4, and saw the B8.5 S4 owners complain about their electric power steering </case> Audi put a LOT of effort to mimic the hydraulic steering, same with BMW, more so in their M models. You are disconnected by wires and an electric motor. It really comes down to how you tune your electric motor and if you put some effort into putting a resistance into the steering wheel

I guess its up to ones interpretation, I see a wire attached to a sensor that feeds a motor, you might see a ?
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15122019/electric-vs-hydraulic-power-steering/
 
Last edited:

hans611

Lost
Location
Miami
Car(s)
'16 Golf R 6MT
What you're likely feeling in odd brake pedal feel of EV's and hybrids is the regenerative braking effect which allows the electric motors to provide the majority of braking force, but there's still very much a traditional hydraulic brake system in every EV and hybrid.
Another thing Porsche is doing differently, this time in their EVs... the Taycan has different regen modes, one basically coasts when you lift the throttle and tries to mimic ICE-like engine braking...
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
Another thing Porsche is doing differently, this time in their EVs... the Taycan has different regen modes, one basically coasts when you lift the throttle and tries to mimic ICE-like engine braking...
This is where software is awesome. I like the ability to drive EV's with one pedal, but my wife doesn't. So being able to toggle between the two modes is great, and it can even be assigned to the key so neither driver even has to toggle anything.
 

Keehs360

Autocross Champion
Location
Denver
Car(s)
Mk7.5
This is where software is awesome. I like the ability to drive EV's with one pedal, but my wife doesn't. So being able to toggle between the two modes is great, and it can even be assigned to the key so neither driver even has to toggle anything.
That’s actually pretty cool!
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
I guess its up to ones interpretation, I see a wire attached to a sensor that feeds a motor, you might see a ?
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15122019/electric-vs-hydraulic-power-steering/
An electric motor is providing assistance to a mechanical setup. Steer by wire would be a steering wheel on the inside not physically connected to the front wheels, but only sending signals to a motor attached to a remote steering rack. I've had two cars with no assistance, so I sort of feel about hydraulic power steering that you do about electronic. My dad's FD RX7 had great EPS, as did the S2k and original NSX (well, the second year, the first year was non assisted.)
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
So that is likely why the new eRDM will never work in the MK7. The MK8 is 48 volt according to VW media anyway. Here is an article stating it is the first Golf to get the 48 volt system.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1123151_2020-vw-golf-will-introduce-48-volt-mild-hybrid-system#:~:text=When the eighth-generation 2020,staple model in its lineup.&text=It will be the first,not the first electrified Golf.

I wasn't 100% sure on the MK7 as there was the e-Golf (and the A3 e-tron)
I'm nearly certain that was an article from 2019 and they ended up not offering the mild hybrid setup on any Mk8. You do bring up the interesting point that both Mk7 and Mk8 have had a full EV though, which presumably is 48v, so it certainly seems possible that at least some versions of the MQB can be 48v, just seemingly not those with ICE.
 

spessx

Ready to race!
Location
Texas
An electric motor is providing assistance to a mechanical setup. Steer by wire would be a steering wheel on the inside not physically connected to the front wheels, but only sending signals to a motor attached to a remote steering rack. I've had two cars with no assistance, so I sort of feel about hydraulic power steering that you do about electronic. My dad's FD RX7 had great EPS, as did the S2k and original NSX (well, the second year, the first year was non assisted.)

I have a 2001 S2000 with EPS. It's excellent but its not drive by wire. There's a geared steering rack with a hall sensor that triggers the electric motor assist. It actually creates a problem as the electrical grease ages and keeps the hall sensor from moving freely. It creates random deadspots in the steering. I had to take mine out, disassemble, clean and regrease it to get it to work. It took me forever to figure it out though.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
I have a 2001 S2000 with EPS. It's excellent but its not drive by wire. There's a geared steering rack with a hall sensor that triggers the electric motor assist. It actually creates a problem as the electrical grease ages and keeps the hall sensor from moving freely. It creates random deadspots in the steering. I had to take mine out, disassemble, clean and regrease it to get it to work. It took me forever to figure it out though.
That's pretty interesting, I suppose all of us will have to deal with that at some point since nearly all cars have been EPS for the last decade or so. The only car's I've kept long enough to where it would matter were either unassisted or HPS.
 

aloha_from_bradley

Go Kart Champion
Location
AZ
My point is, when manufactures moved from hydraulic to 'fly by wire' a lot of them put no effort into making a 'better user experience'.

My brother has a M240i for example, but the tuning of the steering compared to the M2 is numb. He mentioned my fly by wire steering in the R is WAY better than his M240i because you never know exactly where the wheels are. There is no feedback to the user - that can easily be incorporated by putting some resistance and tuning it. Another terrible example is Infiniti/Nissan and what makes the Porsche 911 that much more better of a drive then a GT-R. Add that type of feedback to the gas pedal or brake pedal as well. So for EVs I get the instant torque thing, so the gas pedal is the biggest issue. The brakes though felt very number where it felt like a 50% or 100% - maybe it was the Model 3 I had, but where I believe the hydraulic based R's you have that broad range depending on how much pressure you apply

Hydraulic based system are always going to feel better. Clutch, steering, etc. They just provide better feedback. Just like you mentioned, it's the reason the older BMWs have such great feel. My parents owned a 2007 3 Series, and that was by far the best steering feel of any car I'd ever driven. Was insane how great that car felt on the road. I hear you on the tuning aspect as well, but no electric system will ever feel as good as hydraulic. That's like an electric drum set. You can tune it to sound very very close to the real thing, but it will never sound exactly like the real thing. Some people are resistant to the EV market because of their background and what they grew up with. Change sucks most of the time. But it's the unfortunately reality of the direction things are headed. I doubt we ever see another hydraulic system in a car again.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
Hydraulic based system are always going to feel better. Clutch, steering, etc. They just provide better feedback. Just like you mentioned, it's the reason the older BMWs have such great feel. My parents owned a 2007 3 Series, and that was by far the best steering feel of any car I'd ever driven. Was insane how great that car felt on the road. I hear you on the tuning aspect as well, but no electric system will ever feel as good as hydraulic. That's like an electric drum set. You can tune it to sound very very close to the real thing, but it will never sound exactly like the real thing. Some people are resistant to the EV market because of their background and what they grew up with. Change sucks most of the time. But it's the unfortunately reality of the direction things are headed. I doubt we ever see another hydraulic system in a car again.
Never say never, the Gordon T50 has HPS. But seriously, drive an NSX, S2000 or RX7 and let me know if you really think they'd feel better with HPS. EPS can be just as good, but ZF seems to really suck at it, and BMW's tunes from ZF seem to be the absolute worst. It's also a little hard to compare a fwd or awd car to a rwd in terms of steering feel and certainly gets harder as you get more weight off the front axle too. I think that's one of the reasons the 911 didn't really get panned when it switched from HPS to EPS, there's just so little comparative weight on the front axle that a sand filled system of rough cut gears would still feel better than any fwd setup.
 

spessx

Ready to race!
Location
Texas
That's pretty interesting, I suppose all of us will have to deal with that at some point since nearly all cars have been EPS for the last decade or so. The only car's I've kept long enough to where it would matter were either unassisted or HPS.

The S2000 and NSX systems were designed over 25 years ago. I haven't had a modern eps system apart but I'm willing to bet they've progressed quite a bit.
 
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