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jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
BMW's have always had a tendency to have issues one way or another, maybe more than other manufacturers. This is just a symptom more than anything, as the performance and heritage has done well for the brand in most cases. Things like rod bearings and hub failures are just a reality of owning a high performance car like the M2. I'm pretty sure that the maintenance schedule is pretty hefty, relatively speaking. More so than any MK7 or the like.

I'd beg to differ on the Tesla.
They are doing quite nice on the track. So much so that many other competitive cars are simply losing or just hanging on by a thread. Many of those cars are the best combustion cars we know of (GT3 RS, etc.) Not many are beating a Tesla around a track. It's unfortunate, because for awhile there I didn't want to believe it either. They are heavy and weird, yet they are mobbing around these famous circuits. Odd to think about.

At the end of the day it's becoming pretty clear. Both Audi & VW have committed to no longer developing internal combustion engines, but rather the EV game is taking control of what we currently understand as car manufacturing. It won't be long before the majority of cars we see fall into the EV space. Not to derail this thread, but your wife is looking for a car. I wouldn't be purchasing anything outside of the EV market right now, if it were my dollars & cents.
No doubt they are fast but how many laps can the Tesla keep that up?
 

aloha_from_bradley

Go Kart Champion
Location
AZ
No doubt they are fast but how many laps can the Tesla keep that up?

Who knows?

I'd beg the question - what's your end goal?

Less than 99% of people ever track their cars, and of that percentage, 99% either don't have the money or don't care to keep up with the fastest cars out there.

Either you're looking fore a race car... which in all situations I'd steer away from the Tesla. Or you want something you can mob around the track from time to time, and drive mostly on the streets. Something fast, reliable and fun. I'd say the Tesla ticks all of those boxes.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
Who knows?

I'd beg the question - what's your end goal?

Less than 99% of people ever track their cars, and of that percentage, 99% either don't have the money or don't care to keep up with the fastest cars out there.

Either you're looking fore a race car... which in all situations I'd steer away from the Tesla. Or you want something you can mob around the track from time to time, and drive mostly on the streets. Something fast, reliable and fun. I'd say the Tesla ticks all of those boxes.
I agree but you did post that in response to someone else questioning the Tesla 's tracking capability. But I sure the hell would take one.
 

RudyH

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Kitchener, ON
I'd beg to differ on the Tesla.
They are doing quite nice on the track. So much so that many other competitive cars are simply losing or just hanging on by a thread. Many of those cars are the best combustion cars we know of (GT3 RS, etc.) Not many are beating a Tesla around a track. It's unfortunate, because for awhile there I didn't want to believe it either. They are heavy and weird, yet they are mobbing around these famous circuits. Odd to think about.

At the end of the day it's becoming pretty clear. Both Audi & VW have committed to no longer developing internal combustion engines, but rather the EV game is taking control of what we currently understand as car manufacturing. It won't be long before the majority of cars we see fall into the EV space. Not to derail this thread, but your wife is looking for a car. I wouldn't be purchasing anything outside of the EV market right now, if it were my dollars & cents.
I dunno about that. Every article I read, they overheat like crazy. Even in unbiased drag races, they get slower and slower against the Porsche Taycan, the more back to back runs you do. Fast the first one or two runs, and then get dramatically slower and slower while the Taycan keeps consistently putting down the same numbers.

At a race track where you are on it constantly, Tesla tried once getting around Nurburg, only needing a flat bed to move the overheated Model S. Has this Model S been modified for better heat exchange? I don't doubt they are capable, but Tesla builds numb commuter cars, so far they don't have any real racing experience that they are willing to get behind and learn from. I test drove a Model 3 Long Distance, and it was the most numb drive I have ever encountered. My wife wants an EV, but the market just isn't there yet. Maybe the new i5 or EQE? After seeing a Taycan in the flesh, they aren't that large looking of a car, so hopes are up for the e-tron GT....hopefully Audi has a i5 / EQE competitor sooner then 2023

As you mentioned though, around the streets the Tesla's are good...but I know handling wise, they are nowhere near a Golf R though. As a commuter car I would take one for sure. My wife wants an Audi thanks the e-tron GT unfortunately lol, second mortgage? why not...

Will be interesting to see what happens with the new Plaid, and I am not sure if their 'secret' is going to be the first solid state batteries, that I am waiting for.
 
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aloha_from_bradley

Go Kart Champion
Location
AZ
I dunno about that. Every article I read, they overheat like crazy. Even in unbiased drag races, they get slower and slower against the Porsche Taycan, the more back to back runs you do. Fast the first one or two runs, and then get dramatically slower and slower while the Taycan keeps consistently putting down the same numbers.

At a race track where you are on it constantly, Tesla tried once getting around Nurburg, only needing a flat bed to move the overheated Model S. Has this Model S been modified for better heat exchange? I don't doubt they are capable, but Tesla builds numb commuter cars, so far they don't have any real racing experience that they are willing to get behind and learn from. I test drove a Model 3 Long Distance, and it was the most numb drive I have ever encountered. My wife wants an EV, but the market just isn't there yet. Maybe the new i5 or EQE? After seeing a Taycan in the flesh, they aren't that large looking of a car, so hopes are up for the e-tron GT....hopefully Audi has a i5 / EQE competitor sooner then 2023

As you mentioned though, around the streets the Tesla's are good...but I know handling wise, they are nowhere near a Golf R though. As a commuter car I would take one for sure. My wife wants an Audi thanks the e-tron GT unfortunately lol, second mortgage? why not...

Will be interesting to see what happens with the new Plaid, and I am not sure if their 'secret' is going to be the first solid state batteries, that I am waiting for.

I agree Tesla doesn't make hardened track cars, and stated that earlier. Mostly a street car, and fast. The experience is numb for sure, but that's what happens when you drive an EV for the first time. They feel boring, and are quiet. When you've been driving petrol cars with exhausts and parts that make cool whoosh noises you whole life, the experience behind the wheel of an EV will be completely different... very numb.

I'd slightly disagree about the EV market as a whole. Each new piece of tech we create continues to evolve over time, and gets better and better. We are definitely at a point where owning an EV is easily doable, economic, and in most cases has more pros than cons. Some just aren't ready to make the shift, or spend the money. Thousands of charging stations are being built across the nation, along with almost every manufacturer in development for what they hope to be the next best thing. Audi and VW announced they will no longer be developing or putting any more money into R&D for petrol engines... not even hybrids. I sat in the ID.4 on Friday. Wasn't particularly impressed.

Tesla's are very, very fast. Especially the dual motors. They may not be able to handle several hard laps around a track, but they do everything else extremely well. If I could do it over, I'd prob get the model Y instead of my Tiguan. I'm keeping the golf, though.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
I will say that the new rear motor that started in the Model 3 Perf does seem to hold up much better on track. The S and X are getting them now. That is the neat thing about Tesla, they offer owners the chance to upgrade to newer technology as it comes out, allowing you to keep up with current spec instead of just owning an old car. If they'd just get their build quality out of the gutter, and maybe hire a stylist, I'd strongly consider one for the spousal mobile.

We'd ordered a dual motor ID4 but canceled it recently with the crap review the single motor is getting. The Model Y Performance would make the most sense for us, but I'd like a car that works 365 days of the year and doesn't lose body parts, etc, and Tesla just can't get there, plus it's ass ugly. I'm ready for Apple just to buy them and fix those two things. As of now, I think it's either a Macan GTS or X3 M that will win out. And while I'm making fun of Tesla, their wheels are easily the ugliest in the industry, it's nice of them to help out VW on not winning that title.
 

aloha_from_bradley

Go Kart Champion
Location
AZ
I will say that the new rear motor that started in the Model 3 Perf does seem to hold up much better on track. The S and X are getting them now. That is the neat thing about Tesla, they offer owners the chance to upgrade to newer technology as it comes out, allowing you to keep up with current spec instead of just owning an old car. If they'd just get their build quality out of the gutter, and maybe hire a stylist, I'd strongly consider one for the spousal mobile.

We'd ordered a dual motor ID4 but canceled it recently with the crap review the single motor is getting. The Model Y Performance would make the most sense for us, but I'd like a car that works 365 days of the year and doesn't lose body parts, etc, and Tesla just can't get there, plus it's ass ugly. I'm ready for Apple just to buy them and fix those two things. As of now, I think it's either a Macan GTS or X3 M that will win out. And while I'm making fun of Tesla, their wheels are easily the ugliest in the industry, it's nice of them to help out VW on not winning that title.

Tesla undoubtedly has the worst fit and finish of any car manufacturer right now. Missing paint, paint uniformity issues, panel gaps big enough to stick you finger in, etc. My buddy has a Model Y and had hand prints on the headliner from the factory. Still says it's the best car he's ever owned, and that's coming from an enthusiast. Everything else you listed was subjective for the most part. Styling is preference at the end of the day. Although most Teslas don't seem to be all that handsome.
 

Keehs360

Autocross Champion
Location
Denver
Car(s)
Mk7.5
Tesla undoubtedly has the worst fit and finish of any car manufacturer right now. Missing paint, paint uniformity issues, panel gaps big enough to stick you finger in, etc. My buddy has a Model Y and had hand prints on the headliner from the factory. Still says it's the best car he's ever owned, and that's coming from an enthusiast. Everything else you listed was subjective for the most part. Styling is preference at the end of the day. Although most Teslas don't seem to be all that handsome.
Windows fly off on the highway too. Newest feature.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
Windows fly off on the highway too. Newest feature.
The whole roof too!

I think it's hard to argue that Tesla has the best software. They get far more range out of equivalent batteries and utilize battery capacity better than others. The one place they're severely lacking is in quick charging, they just don't seem to be developing anything to compete with the latest cars on that front, but of course, one over the air update could easily change that.
 

GolfRRRR1

Go Kart Champion
Location
Michigan
I just spent a week at Barrett Jackson and there was a Tesla display there. This was the first time I seriously looked at the Tesla vehicles and it looked great from 10-15 ft, but I never seen such poor body gaps on a modern car, they were just horrible. To be honest, another thing is I didn't have a clue which one I was looking at...there were no badges. I hope the best for them, but they need to step up on quality because others are arriving quickly.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
2018 GTI SE
I just spent a week at Barrett Jackson and there was a Tesla display there. This was the first time I seriously looked at the Tesla vehicles and it looked great from 10-15 ft, but I never seen such poor body gaps on a modern car, they were just horrible. To be honest, another thing is I didn't have a clue which one I was looking at...there were no badges. I hope the best for them, but they need to step up on quality because others are arriving quickly.
Agreed, outside of the Model X, they're not really ugly, just sort of bland and all look alike. If you're Aston Martin, that's one thing, but if you're just a blob on wheels, please start trying. The Taycan and Audi eTron GT are going to eat the poor Model S's lunch, I can't imagine picking the Model S over either one of those. Once someone makes a compelling option to the Model 3 and Model Y, it will likely be curtains for the rich guy, unless he gets a stylist and figures out fast charging.
 

RudyH

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Kitchener, ON
I agree Tesla doesn't make hardened track cars, and stated that earlier. Mostly a street car, and fast. The experience is numb for sure, but that's what happens when you drive an EV for the first time. They feel boring, and are quiet. When you've been driving petrol cars with exhausts and parts that make cool whoosh noises you whole life, the experience behind the wheel of an EV will be completely different... very numb.

I'd slightly disagree about the EV market as a whole. Each new piece of tech we create continues to evolve over time, and gets better and better. We are definitely at a point where owning an EV is easily doable, economic, and in most cases has more pros than cons. Some just aren't ready to make the shift, or spend the money. Thousands of charging stations are being built across the nation, along with almost every manufacturer in development for what they hope to be the next best thing. Audi and VW announced they will no longer be developing or putting any more money into R&D for petrol engines... not even hybrids. I sat in the ID.4 on Friday. Wasn't particularly impressed.

Tesla's are very, very fast. Especially the dual motors. They may not be able to handle several hard laps around a track, but they do everything else extremely well. If I could do it over, I'd prob get the model Y instead of my Tiguan. I'm keeping the golf, though.
The thing is, I doubt Tesla will ever make a 'drivers car'. They are looking at automation of the fleet as their priority vs enjoyment of drive. Audi / BMW / Porsche is more the companies to watch for that, where generally many other companies make an appliance to get you from point A to point B with no real passion behind it - even in their 'sportier' cars. Exceptions I can think of, off the top of my head - Cadillac has been interesting, Hyundai / Genesis.

I agree that EV's will get better, the big thing that will change a LOT, is the soild state batteries. Range and performance mainly. My point is right now it's not worth it to me to really car for an EV. I am not going to buy a $150,000 EV, in that 'Model S' range. So that leaves a Model 3, and then a bunch of EV appliances until maybe 2023-2024? The Model 3 when I test drove it was very numb, and almost like you were sitting in a cheap racing simulator video game when it you were expecting some type of feedback, from the steering wheel, to the 'gas pedal' to the brakes.
 

aloha_from_bradley

Go Kart Champion
Location
AZ
The thing is, I doubt Tesla will ever make a 'drivers car'. They are looking at automation of the fleet as their priority vs enjoyment of drive. Audi / BMW / Porsche is more the companies to watch for that, where generally many other companies make an appliance to get you from point A to point B with no real passion behind it - even in their 'sportier' cars. Exceptions I can think of, off the top of my head - Cadillac has been interesting, Hyundai / Genesis.

I agree that EV's will get better, the big thing that will change a LOT, is the soild state batteries. Range and performance mainly. My point is right now it's not worth it to me to really car for an EV. I am not going to buy a $150,000 EV, in that 'Model S' range. So that leaves a Model 3, and then a bunch of EV appliances until maybe 2023-2024? The Model 3 when I test drove it was very numb, and almost like you were sitting in a cheap racing simulator video game when it you were expecting some type of feedback, from the steering wheel, to the 'gas pedal' to the brakes.

This is the reality of EV. I said it earlier in this thread. Every person I've ever talked to in the enthusiast community has said the same thing. The first spin behind the wheel of an EV is numb... and we can all imagine why. Totally different driving experience. No sound, no feeling, no shaking, quiet a a church. The only thing you can hear are the motors wining as you build speed. If you are an enthusiast, or even worse a manual purest, it's going to be extremely hard to make the EV switch. It will be happening in our lifetime, though. Several manufacturers have committed to no longer developing petrol engines, VAG being at the head of the pack.

Tesla is the Apple of cars, or at least they will be when they get their hardware figured out. Elon said himself that he wants to dominate the EV space, and when the company starting falling short of projected numbers at the assembly line, they started ramping production to meet goals. Bad decision if you ask me, and I personally think this is why we have been seen the poor QC coming from Tesla over the last couple of years. They are simply building cars too fast.

All in all Tesla makes a great package. You get a huge kick back from the government, the software is far superior to any other EV out there, they are reliable, and let's face it... they are stupid fast. Maybe they don't do well around a track for several laps, but you could do much worse. Regardless, I'm keeping my R.
 

RudyH

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Kitchener, ON
This is the reality of EV. I said it earlier in this thread. Every person I've ever talked to in the enthusiast community has said the same thing. The first spin behind the wheel of an EV is numb... and we can all imagine why. Totally different driving experience. No sound, no feeling, no shaking, quiet a a church. The only thing you can hear are the motors wining as you build speed. If you are an enthusiast, or even worse a manual purest, it's going to be extremely hard to make the EV switch. It will be happening in our lifetime, though. Several manufacturers have committed to no longer developing petrol engines, VAG being at the head of the pack.

Tesla is the Apple of cars, or at least they will be when they get their hardware figured out. Elon said himself that he wants to dominate the EV space, and when the company starting falling short of projected numbers at the assembly line, they started ramping production to meet goals. Bad decision if you ask me, and I personally think this is why we have been seen the poor QC coming from Tesla over the last couple of years. They are simply building cars too fast.

All in all Tesla makes a great package. You get a huge kick back from the government, the software is far superior to any other EV out there, they are reliable, and let's face it... they are stupid fast. Maybe they don't do well around a track for several laps, but you could do much worse. Regardless, I'm keeping my R.
My point is, when manufactures moved from hydraulic to 'fly by wire' a lot of them put no effort into making a 'better user experience'.

My brother has a M240i for example, but the tuning of the steering compared to the M2 is numb. He mentioned my fly by wire steering in the R is WAY better than his M240i because you never know exactly where the wheels are. There is no feedback to the user - that can easily be incorporated by putting some resistance and tuning it. Another terrible example is Infiniti/Nissan and what makes the Porsche 911 that much more better of a drive then a GT-R. Add that type of feedback to the gas pedal or brake pedal as well. So for EVs I get the instant torque thing, so the gas pedal is the biggest issue. The brakes though felt very number where it felt like a 50% or 100% - maybe it was the Model 3 I had, but where I believe the hydraulic based R's you have that broad range depending on how much pressure you apply
 

RudyH

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Kitchener, ON
Completely different topic on my the MK8, do we have a 48V electric system in the MK7?

https://www.borgwarner.com/technologies/awd-cross-axle-systems

Came across this today: eRDM appears to be the 'technical name' of the new system in the MK8. I think that system using the 48V system won't allow us to use it in the MK7? So we are the last generation to have the Haldex couplers? Technical white paper, its very interesting actually. The response chart is quite interesting near the end vs the traditional systems we have seen

https://cdn.borgwarner.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/2017-whitepaper-borgwarner-48v-torque-vectoring-erdm-en.pdf?sfvrsn=92b3b23c_8#:~:text=enters torque vectoring mode.,outstanding driving dynamics and stability.
 
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