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Thread derailed.....ugly car discussion and blue holes.....

JerseyDrew77

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia & NC
Car(s)
2016 TR GTI S 6MT
Name one. This might have been true ten or fifteen years ago, but hasn't been true in quite a while. The GTI has been faster in DSG form pretty much since the DSG was offered. The GT4 is amusingly quicker as a PDK car. Any older M car is much quicker as a DCT. Any current M car is much quicker with the ZF8. Mustangs are quicker with the 10a. Camaros are faster with the 10a. In fact, I can't think of a quickish manual car that I could name that's not losing half a second or more in the 1/4 to the flappy paddle version. The only thing that comes to mind are the Miata and BRZ, both of which have Cousin It for automatics and don't make any torque in the first place.

I will never buy an automatic, but there's just no way around the fact that they're much more efficient. Most dyno estimates put modern automatics and dual clutches at under 10% loss while manuals will always and forever be 15%.

The CTR would absolutely be quicker with a DSG and it sounds like the new one will offer both, just like the VW and Hyundai.
In a straight line, yes, automatics are quicker. On a road course/autocross, I don't know, I can see the manual being quicker when driven properly.
 

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
Plot twist : he has a base civic with a type r body kit and wheels
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
23 Golf R - 3 Pedals
In a straight line, yes, automatics are quicker. On a road course/autocross, I don't know, I can see the manual being quicker when driven properly.
Gah, the track is actually one area that I'd consider a flappy paddle. Faster shifts, easier to trail brake, inability to money shift.

But for the street, manual all day
 

toothofwar

Autocross Champion
Location
KY
Car(s)
2018 Golf R
I miss the manual I had in the gti. So much fun! But sadly with the wife's back fusions it was a big no go anymore.
 

Fastlax16

Autocross Newbie
Location
Chitown
Car(s)
2019 DBP R
Name one. This might have been true ten or fifteen years ago, but hasn't been true in quite a while. The GTI has been faster in DSG form pretty much since the DSG was offered. The GT4 is amusingly quicker as a PDK car. Any older M car is much quicker as a DCT. Any current M car is much quicker with the ZF8. Mustangs are quicker with the 10a. Camaros are faster with the 10a. In fact, I can't think of a quickish manual car that I could name that's not losing half a second or more in the 1/4 to the flappy paddle version. The only thing that comes to mind are the Miata and BRZ, both of which have Cousin It for automatics and don't make any torque in the first place.

I will never buy an automatic, but there's just no way around the fact that they're much more efficient. Most dyno estimates put modern automatics and dual clutches at under 10% loss while manuals will always and forever be 15%.

The CTR would absolutely be quicker with a DSG and it sounds like the new one will offer both, just like the VW and Hyundai.

The GTI manual isn't a half second slower than the DSG stock for stock. The actual significant difference in performance between the DSG and Manual R has for some reason led to a perceived equally large gap in performance between the DSG and manual GTI that doesn't exist. All the reviews I've read show them as nearly identical. Example below. 14.3@100 vs 14.4@100. Motor Trend did get a 2/10 difference (14.5 vs 14.7) testing the facelift gti back to back.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15107671/2015-volkswagen-gti-dsg-automatic-test-review/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15109184/2015-volkswagen-gti-test-review/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/golf/2018/2018-volkswagen-golf-gti-first-test-review/
 
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toothofwar

Autocross Champion
Location
KY
Car(s)
2018 Golf R
Looks like tonight wasn't the night is tomorrow night when you're going to kick ass?
He backed out. I was hopeful, but I think he realized his error before he got embarrassed.
 

Keehs360

Autocross Champion
Location
Denver
Car(s)
Mk7.5
He backed out. I was hopeful, but I think he realized his error before he got embarrassed.
At least u tried


I have a lot of experience in the type r. Very effortless to drive on a course. It's just easy to be successful, you hardly have to focus. That's what she was born for. Going in a straight line is difficult due to all the tq reduction it's got. Plus stage 1 tunes for the type r won't net it enough gains tbh
 

SnailpowerMk7

Go Kart Champion
Location
NJ
Car(s)
MK7 GTI SE 6SPD MT
Name one. This might have been true ten or fifteen years ago, but hasn't been true in quite a while. The GTI has been faster in DSG form pretty much since the DSG was offered. The GT4 is amusingly quicker as a PDK car. Any older M car is much quicker as a DCT. Any current M car is much quicker with the ZF8. Mustangs are quicker with the 10a. Camaros are faster with the 10a. In fact, I can't think of a quickish manual car that I could name that's not losing half a second or more in the 1/4 to the flappy paddle version. The only thing that comes to mind are the Miata and BRZ, both of which have Cousin It for automatics and don't make any torque in the first place.

I will never buy an automatic, but there's just no way around the fact that they're much more efficient. Most dyno estimates put modern automatics and dual clutches at under 10% loss while manuals will always and forever be 15%.

The CTR would absolutely be quicker with a DSG and it sounds like the new one will offer both, just like the VW and Hyundai.

Well yes, I wasn't directly talking nowadays. I was referring to the past where they could actually make solid manuals. Quick example, hmm, my Srt4 that was only sold in manual would run a 13.7 1/4 stock. You won't get that in a stock DSG. Lucky if a stg1 or 2 can even hit that.

You said the GTI has been faster in DSG form since it was offered only confirms how VW may have neglected a decent manual setup for the car since then. Again, more than likely with it being, they'll sell the DSG for more $$$ and offer the manual cheaper of course but also with cheaper parts to really save on costs.

I'm not going to go into a discussion of this car as auto vs manual performs XXX. I'm just thinking of awesome cars that were designed well, a blast to drive manual, and could perform.

I know you might gain a few more seconds off a 1/4 time with auto, but where is the fun? Do you really have a blast just mashing your foot to the floor and holding on to the steering wheel? You didn't see those shots in Gone in 60 Seconds or Fast and Furious movies, lol? It was always slamming the gear in and rowing through them looking as badass as possible in the process, rofl.
 
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Keehs360

Autocross Champion
Location
Denver
Car(s)
Mk7.5
Well yes, I wasn't directly talking nowadays. I was referring to the past where they could actually make solid manuals. Quick example, hmm, my Srt4 that was only sold in manual would run a 13.7 1/4 stock. You won't get that in a stock DSG. Lucky if a stg1 or 2 can even hit that.

You said the GTI has been faster in DSG form since it was offered only confirms how VW may have neglected a decent manual setup for the car since then. Again, more than likely with it being, they'll sell the DSG for more $$$ and offer the manual cheaper of course but also with cheaper parts to really save on costs.

I'm not going to go into a car for discussion of this car as auto vs manual performs XXX. I'm just thinking of awesome cars that were designed well, a blast to drive manual, and could perform.

I know you might gain a few more seconds off a 1/4 time with auto, but where is the fun? Do you really have a blast just mashing your foot to the floor and holding on to the steering wheel? You didn't see those shots in Gone in 60 Seconds or Fast and Furious movies, lol. It was always slamming the gear in and rowing through them looking as badass as possible in the process, rofl.
I’d agree with u for sure. Even the worse, the most average or best manual have one thing in common. You feel connected to the car. The dsg fails here
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
The reality is, VW doesn't really care about the manual and aren't going to put any money or effort into improving it. We're supposed to be grateful we even get a manual.

They have the parts already in the parts bin to do it at little to no cost, yet here we are.

It's sad.
 

Fastlax16

Autocross Newbie
Location
Chitown
Car(s)
2019 DBP R
The reality is, VW doesn't really care about the manual and aren't going to put any money or effort into improving it. We're suposed to be grateful we even get a manual.

They have the parts already in the parts bin to do it at little to no cost, yet here we are.

It's sad.
Do they though? Unless you're referring to the going into the Porsche parts bin I'm not sure where else any good manuals live in the current broader product portfolio.

Honestly developing launch control would be the #1 change I'd make. Ford had it 5 years ago in the Focus RS, no reason that VW shouldn't by now. 95% of the advantage you see in the 1/4 mile and 0-60 times between dsg and manual Rs comes down to launch control. Roll races the gap narrows quite a bit.
 

SnailpowerMk7

Go Kart Champion
Location
NJ
Car(s)
MK7 GTI SE 6SPD MT
Automatics are no different than Teslas in my mind.

Teslas are for people that hate driving, no matter how fast they are. On one end they're trying to show you how wickedly fast they are. Then on the other end, they're trying to be autonomous where you don't even need to drive the car... yay! How does that work?

Listen, Teslas are iPhones with wheels with all the technology they pack in them. They've for the general public who have $$$, don't like tinkering and just want to go from point A to B ideally, without even having to drive the car.

If Tesla could work on a more driver oriented experience, I might consider them, but as of now, I feel like they're against the car enthusiast and cater to people that have $$$ and don't care about the actual driving experience.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
Do they though? Unless you're referring to the going into the Porsche parts bin I'm not sure where else any good manuals live in the current broader product portfolio.

Honestly developing launch control would be the #1 change I'd make. Ford had it 5 years ago in the Focus RS, no reason that VW shouldn't by now. 95% of the advantage you see in the 1/4 mile and 0-60 times between dsg and manual Rs comes down to launch control. Roll races the gap narrows quite a bit.

Isn't there a factory pressure plate and clutch combo everyone used to do?

And if Cobb can come up with decent TC, VW should be embarrassed with theirs.
 
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