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Mixing VW 502 Oil?

geokilla

Go Kart Champion
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Car(s)
2018 VW GTI DSG
I know we can mix engine oils from different brands, especially if they're high quality engine oils. But what if the engine require specific engine oil specifications, like our VW 502 for example? For my winter oil change, I'm going to use 4.73L of Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 0W40 and about 800ML of Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40. Both are VW 502 approved so theoretically it should be fine? The reason I'm mixing is because I have an open jug of Pennzoil and Mobil 1 is on sale.
 

geokilla

Go Kart Champion
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Car(s)
2018 VW GTI DSG
Anyone?
 

scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
I know we can mix engine oils from different brands, especially if they're high quality engine oils. But what if the engine require specific engine oil specifications, like our VW 502 for example? For my winter oil change, I'm going to use 4.73L of Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 0W40 and about 800ML of Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40. Both are VW 502 approved so theoretically it should be fine? The reason I'm mixing is because I have an open jug of Pennzoil and Mobil 1 is on sale.
Oils are formulated with specific additive packages for the total composition they sell. Base oil, anti-wear/friction modifiers, and detergents. One 502 oil is not going to have the same additive package as another, particularly between different conglomerates. Mobil 1 is in-house Exxon Mobile, Pennzoil (Shell) is Lubrizol (iirc).

I don't like mixing even with the same manufacturer's blends, they generally have different chemistry philosophies even across viscosities, as the thinner ones will be capped on antiwear additives due to licensing limitations.

I'll do it if I'm low on oil and not at home, but I'm changing it out next chance I get. I'm not an oil formulator and it's like, $8 to get another quart of matching M1, so why leave it to chance?
 

geokilla

Go Kart Champion
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Car(s)
2018 VW GTI DSG
Oils are formulated with specific additive packages for the total composition they sell. Base oil, anti-wear/friction modifiers, and detergents. One 502 oil is not going to have the same additive package as another, particularly between different conglomerates. Mobil 1 is in-house Exxon Mobile, Pennzoil (Shell) is Lubrizol (iirc).

I don't like mixing even with the same manufacturer's blends, they generally have different chemistry philosophies even across viscosities, as the thinner ones will be capped on antiwear additives due to licensing limitations.

I'll do it if I'm low on oil and not at home, but I'm changing it out next chance I get. I'm not an oil formulator and it's like, $8 to get another quart of matching M1, so why leave it to chance?
It's $17 + tax for 946mL. Or $53 + tax for 4.73L now that the sale is over. The car will probably see less than 2000km of use during the winter months so if there's no harm in doing so, I'd rather not have another open bottle of oil sit on the shelf in the garage. Only reason I'm doing an oil change right now is because I stick to a 8 months maximum oil change interval. I drove only about 4000km since my spring oil change because I didn't have many places to go or attend any HPDE this year due.
 

scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
It's $17 + tax for 946mL. Or $53 + tax for 4.73L now that the sale is over. The car will probably see less than 2000km of use during the winter months so if there's no harm in doing so, I'd rather not have another open bottle of oil sit on the shelf in the garage. Only reason I'm doing an oil change right now is because I stick to a 8 months maximum oil change interval. I drove only about 4000km since my spring oil change because I didn't have many places to go or attend any HPDE this year due.
Oil is going to last longer in a closed (if unsealed) bottle than in a motor with wear metals to oxidize. The difference is not going to be noticeable, which is why I buy 2x 5qt jugs for my 8qt changes. The cost of 3 single quarts is more than a 5qt jug though, so it's very easy to justify.
 

golfbest

New member
Location
redland
Car(s)
golf
Unless your car has special requirements for engine oil (for example, the belt is soaked in engine oil), or your driving conditions are very severe, it is okay to mix the same certified oil. Even some mechanics mix several types of engine oil to complete an oil change.
 

scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
Unless your car has special requirements for engine oil (for example, the belt is soaked in engine oil), or your driving conditions are very severe, it is okay to mix the same certified oil. Even some mechanics mix several types of engine oil to complete an oil change.
some mechanics do a lot of dumb stuff, doesn't make it right
 

tmw2442

Autocross Newbie
Location
Approved NPC storage contanier
Car(s)
Mk7 R
It all depends on the anti-wear additive package chemistry of the oils, most oils (generally) do not have competing additives; some do/can have dissimilar additive chemistry. The only true way to know is oil analysis and looking at wear metals/chemistry from said analysis. The question I keep asking myself is but....WHY? Generally with information I can find online and analysis on virgin oil from projectfarm (does mostly objective side by side testing) , fordbossme (posts virgin blackstone analysis), and the motor oil geek (a chemist) youtube channels.

Pennzoil products (primarily Ultra Platinum/normal Platinum) seem to seem to be slightly above to above the average and Mobil 1/Castol is average at best based on published testing/analysis. That doesn't mean Mobil/Castrol are bad products, if they work for you based on mostly objective data, great.

The only true way to get consistent analysis oil an oil is run it at least twice in a row (2 changes) and do analysis on the second change when swapping brands. The first change is not a virgin analysis as some additives are adhere to the metal and residual oil in the sump (in these motors 1/4 to 1/5 of a court if you drain the pan, a little more than a 1/3 quart ish if you do a topside change) from the previous brand change.

What you also have to consider is oil companies change additive pack blends sometimes every year or two, so even though the package is identical you could possibly be getting a different overall forumlation. Mobil 1s 0w-40 from 3-4 years ago is not the same 0w-40 on sale at Wally World today, is one better than the other, from what objective measurement?

If the use the same additives in relatively the same % percent +/- 10/15 percent, the motor isn't going to care, and probably neither is the oil analysis going to show any changes of note, but is saving 5-10 bucks on an oil really worth all the effort, IMO to me it isn't.
Overall in general in additive packs in the last 4-5 years Calcium has been decreased from 1600ish down to 1100 ish to combat Low speed pre-ignition and Zinc has been decreased for emission system life as low tension oil control rings has become the standard to drop pumping loses and leading cars in general to use more oil, so more additive pack chemicals are being burned via combustion. Manufactures say 1 quart 3 quarts over an oil interval is ok.... :rolleyes:. I roll my eyes, when I hear that bullshit.

The manufacturer of a vehicle is only interested in the warranty period ie...5 to 6 years where THEY are on the hook, so they have determined the car in general will "survive" have that time period with 6 oil changes. They have zero interest passed the warranty period, they give zero Fs and want to sell you a new vehicle.

"Lifetime..." fluids (ie coolant, trans, diffs) is market wank-i-teering for the warranty period...So if a service advisor or anyone at a stealer-ship says that (it's, "LIFETIME"), it needs changed every 50-60K miles. What condition will it be in with 60K miles and minimum "recommended" oil changes, probably starting to show some signs of using oil, depending on how it was driven.

Generally people only keep a car 3-5 years then they ("upgrade..."), to a new one. I try not generally to play F, (because I, "saved", 200 to 300 bucks over 3-4 years, etc..) the next guy, and it keeps the vehicle in good condition. Keeping the same vechicle on the road for longer is better for the consumer market, whether you keep it or it goes to the next guy, more availabity/greater number in the used market is lower prices for everyone, keeping prices lower.

Generally under normal driving, you could change the brand every time, as long as the weight/spec is on the bottle and the car will run fine. Can you possibly have a little more wear from change to change (seems to be what data indicates....), than sticking with one brand over the lifetime you have the car. Probably, indicated by testing. Is that small amount of wear going to reduce engine life, probably not significantly. But from the vechiles I have owned, majority indicate burning a signifant amoun of oil around 80-100K miles (noticable change on the dipstick), and the ones that do/have it's less than 1/3 a quart an oil change by measuring what came out and the amount going in around 100K miles. And generally the ones burning the oil are the used ones that I have bought used in the 40 to 80K range.
 
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scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
It all depends on the anti-wear additive package chemistry of the oils, most oils (generally) do not have competing additives; some do/can have dissimilar additive chemistry. The only true way to know is oil analysis and looking at wear metals/chemistry from said analysis. The question I keep asking myself is but....WHY? Generally with information I can find online and analysis on virgin oil from projectfarm (does mostly objective side by side testing) , fordbossme (posts virgin blackstone analysis), and the motor oil geek (a chemist) youtube channels.

Pennzoil products (primarily Ultra Platinum/normal Platinum) seem to seem to be slightly above to above the average and Mobil 1/Castol is average at best based on the testing. The only true way to get consistent analysis oil an oil is run it at least twice in a row (2 changes) and do analysis on the second change when swapping brands. The first change is not a virgin analysis as some additives are adhere to the metal and residual oil in the sump (in these motors 1/4 to 1/5 of a court if you drain the pan, a little more than a 1/3 quart ish if you do a topside change) from the previous brand change.

What you also have to consider is oil companies change additive pack blends sometimes every year or two, so even though the package is identical you could possibly be getting a different overall product. Mobil 1s 0w-40 from 3-4 years ago is not the same 0w-40 on sale at Wally World today.

If the use the same additives in relatively the same % percent +/- 10/15 percent, the motor isn't going to care, and probably neither is the oil analysis going to show any changes of note, but is saving 5-10 bucks on an oil really worth all the effort, IMO to me it isn't.
Overall in general in additive packs in the last 4-5 years Calcium has been decreased from 1600ish down to 1100 ish to combat Low speed pre-ignition and Zinc has been decreased for emission system life as low tension oil control rings has become the standard to drop pumping loses and leading cars in general to use more oil, so more additive pack chemicals are being burned via combustion. Manufactures say 1 quart 3 quarts over an oil interval is ok.... :rolleyes:. I roll my eyes, when I see that bullshit.
I agree with most of this, but project farm is mostly entertainment, not objective testing. At least the stuff involving oil outside the motor doing ice luges and sitting in coffee pots--completely irrelevant.

The brands are just hard to generalize, pennzoil (ultra) platinum are very different than the pennzoil euro products, of which they have like 6? The non-euro products are much more geared towards fuel efficiency. Not that I think they're bad, I was using PUP 5w30, soon Euro L 5w30 in my subaru. Ultra Platinum is very thin for a 5w30, especially in a very high-dilution motor and it's not a euro car oil, so not really relevant here though.

The two issues with oil analysis, especially with blackstone, are that they are not intended to be an analysis on the motor, nor are they particularly helpful in evaluating virgin oil. It's intended to tell you if an oil needs to be changed and that's about it. I've sent samples in from virgin 5w40 oil and they've come back and told me it was a 30 weight. They've said oil with 5% fuel dilution by chromatography is only 0.5% by their method. I've sent oil with visible journal bearing material and been given results showing totally in-spec wear metals.
Not that it's not a useful tool, but people comparing results with single-digit ppm iron wear per 1000 miles? Way too much going on to credit a particular oil as significantly better.
 

tmw2442

Autocross Newbie
Location
Approved NPC storage contanier
Car(s)
Mk7 R
I agree with most of this, but project farm is mostly entertainment, not objective testing. At least the stuff involving oil outside the motor doing ice luges and sitting in coffee pots--completely irrelevant.

The brands are just hard to generalize, pennzoil (ultra) platinum are very different than the pennzoil euro products, of which they have like 6? The non-euro products are much more geared towards fuel efficiency. Not that I think they're bad, I was using PUP 5w30, soon Euro L 5w30 in my subaru. Ultra Platinum is very thin for a 5w30, especially in a very high-dilution motor and it's not a euro car oil, so not really relevant here though.

The two issues with oil analysis, especially with blackstone, are that they are not intended to be an analysis on the motor, nor are they particularly helpful in evaluating virgin oil. It's intended to tell you if an oil needs to be changed and that's about it. I've sent samples in from virgin 5w40 oil and they've come back and told me it was a 30 weight. They've said oil with 5% fuel dilution by chromatography is only 0.5% by their method. I've sent oil with visible journal bearing material and been given results showing totally in-spec wear metals.
Not that it's not a useful tool, but people comparing results with single-digit ppm iron wear per 1000 miles? Way too much going on to credit a particular oil as significantly better.
Sucks that the blackstone sample with visible wear didn't do provide much help...

Objective from the point of it's the same "test" at the same time, under the same conditions with different oil brands or that both virgin examples where sent in at the same time is what I was trying attempting to express. Not that his (projectfarm...) methods is/are a landmark process for specific brand objective testing or how it will work specifically in your car, he seems to state that in his video from what I can recall. But the actual additive pack numbers he posts for the wide range of oil, should be an indicator. Generally, a more robust anti wear package the longer the oil life is and the the less wear metals you see.

Anything showing 0-5ppm or less on an oil analysis sheet should be considered a basically a zero as the instruments general don't read lower that 5 ppm

One oil may do wonders in one are and not work as well for another especially if the engine design is different, it's just the way it is. Only way to know what does well in your specific vehicle, is for you to test. All the info is mostly a guideline and not much is a gospel, but with wear, a break down in the viscosity equals more wear, if you can track that breakdown/metric, you can generally keep wear low. Whatever thy manufacturer recommends, X brand fluid, change times, doesn't really mean it is "the...best..." fluid/interval...or what the best interval could be. Posting experiences...what works for you/me, can help make a in general consciences, as long as "me*" or "you*" (generally, live in the similar climate, drive similar....etc...)

In general, though 4K to 6K change intervals for the normal person is going to be objectively better for engine life than a 10K manufacturers recommendation, and the 10,15K to 25K on the outside of the marketing wankers label....

Wear also depends on how you drive, doing track days, you probably need to do more changes and a different formulated oil than a dude, taking pics of his lower car for insta-likes during his Friday late night taco bell drive through runs.
 
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scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
Objective from the point of it's the same "test" at the same time with different oils or that both virgin examples where sent in at the same time is what I was trying attempting to express. Anything showing 0-5ppm or less on an oil analysis sheet should be considered a zero.
Objective but unrelated to the environment an oil operates in (under pressure, moving, with shear stress).

0-5ppm is rare, I'm speaking mostly in terms of wear per 1000 miles. Personally of the UOAs I've seen for EA888.3s, the only variables that seems to significantly drive up wear are ethanol use and foreign debris (intake leaks, unsealed engines for timing work, etc.). Sound or oil consumption aren't inherently indicators of how a motor is wearing.
 

goodvibes

Go Kart Champion
Location
IL
I know we can mix engine oils from different brands, especially if they're high quality engine oils. But what if the engine require specific engine oil specifications, like our VW 502 for example? For my winter oil change, I'm going to use 4.73L of Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 0W40 and about 800ML of Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40. Both are VW 502 approved so theoretically it should be fine? The reason I'm mixing is because I have an open jug of Pennzoil and Mobil 1 is on sale.
At those %s and time you could use anything from 0w20 to 15w50 including cheap dino and the oil would still be in spec and it wouldn't show any difference in wear on a short UOA like that..
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Eh it's fine if you need to get rid of some oil to blend it - if they are both the same Euro 40 grades, I see no issue as they are v. similar across brands that have the same approvals. Clearly the ideal situation is to just use one oil here.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Sucks that the blackstone sample with visible wear didn't do provide much help...

Objective from the point of it's the same "test" at the same time, under the same conditions with different oil brands or that both virgin examples where sent in at the same time is what I was trying attempting to express. Not that his (projectfarm...) methods is/are a landmark process for specific brand objective testing or how it will work specifically in your car, he seems to state that in his video from what I can recall. But the actual additive pack numbers he posts for the wide range of oil, should be an indicator. Generally, a more robust anti wear package the longer the oil life is and the the less wear metals you see.

Anything showing 0-5ppm or less on an oil analysis sheet should be considered a basically a zero as the instruments general don't read lower that 5 ppm

One oil may do wonders in one are and not work as well for another especially if the engine design is different, it's just the way it is. Only way to know what does well in your specific vehicle, is for you to test. All the info is mostly a guideline and not much is a gospel, but with wear, a break down in the viscosity equals more wear, if you can track that breakdown/metric, you can generally keep wear low. Whatever thy manufacturer recommends, X brand fluid, change times, doesn't really mean it is "the...best..." fluid/interval...or what the best interval could be. Posting experiences...what works for you/me, can help make a in general consciences, as long as "me*" or "you*" (generally, live in the similar climate, drive similar....etc...)

In general, though 4K to 6K change intervals for the normal person is going to be objectively better for engine life than a 10K manufacturers recommendation, and the 10,15K to 25K on the outside of the marketing wankers label....

Wear also depends on how you drive, doing track days, you probably need to do more changes and a different formulated oil than a dude, taking pics of his lower car for insta-likes during his Friday late night taco bell drive through runs.
Project Farm could do a taste test or color test as well, it would have the same value as what he does w/r to how these actually perform in your engine. The wear test he does also would do well with shampoo which would show great results. Comparing oils by adding up values from VOAs is also a somewhat worthless excercise that isn't an indicator of what works better or will have less wear. UOAs from Blackstone are valueble in giving a baseline to compare UOAs against over many '000s of miles, not just one or two tests. And those are just giving trends (best to look at them as /1000 miles vs. absolute values) to watch and can help determine how long you can run the oil.
 
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