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Looking for brake upgrade options

Jonnyr6

Ready to race!
Location
Toronto
Car(s)
2017 golf R
Looking to hear from people that have a non pp stock brake setup that had noticeable results from any sort of upgrades.


I know I can do a more aggressive pad or even a pp/R disk and caliper conversion. I'm wondering direction is the most efficient and cost effective route to improve my braking force without going BBK since it's just a daily.

I'm stage 2 full bolt on gti with lightweight wheels and good tires. I don't feel confident with the braking at higher speeds with the stock non pp system.
 

GTI Jake

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte, NC
Looking to hear from people that have a non pp stock brake setup that had noticeable results from any sort of upgrades.


I know I can do a more aggressive pad or even a pp/R disk and caliper conversion. I'm wondering direction is the most efficient and cost effective route to improve my braking force without going BBK since it's just a daily.

I'm stage 2 full bolt on gti with lightweight wheels and good tires. I don't feel confident with the braking at higher speeds with the stock non pp system.

 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Nothing is going to make you stop sooner/shorter except different tires. Larger brake upgrades are to reduce fade over repeated stops/slows like in the mountains or on the track.

Here's a 60-0 comparo of my stock 312mm (well...upgraded to the base GTI/Alltrack brakes over the stock 288s on my Sportwagen) with EBC Yellowstuff pads, slotted rotors, ss lines, RS3 ducts, Motul RBF600 fluid ("before") and my APR 350mm BBK with a similar hybrid-type pad compound ("after"). The common denominator? Tires. Same road. Same everything. Both test were on UHP all season tires that had a similar level of grip. Stopping distance is the same (ok...2' difference but we'll call that within the error bar of the variables involved) but...on the track, the APR out-performed the stock-ish setup hands-down.

If you don't feel that the stock brakes are up to par - you should get better feel with a fixed caliper setup like a BBK or the more budget-friendly options like the Macan. Even the 340mm stock GTI PP/R/S3 setup may be enough of an improvement. BBKs with larger/thicker rotors and better venting are for heat management and multi-pistons give more even force on the pads for even wear.

312 vs BBK.JPG
 
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TheBlondeFella

Go Kart Newbie
Location
UK
Car(s)
MK7 Golf R
Nothing is going to make you stop sooner/shorter except different tires. Larger brake upgrades are to reduce fade over repeated stops/slows like in the mountains or on the track.
Thats not exactly true but not exactly wrong either.

A true BBK will stop you quicker.
Set ups like the Macan calliper upgrade however won't make a huge amount of difference in stopping power but should reduce brake fade over repeated use.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Thats not exactly true but not exactly wrong either.

A true BBK will stop you quicker.
Set ups like the Macan calliper upgrade however won't make a huge amount of difference in stopping power but should reduce brake fade over repeated use.
My data I posted says otherwise - that's a "true BBK". If your stock brakes can activate the ABS you're at the limit of your tires. How will the the BBK stop you quicker? This is a well understood concept with plenty of supporting info.
 

TheBlondeFella

Go Kart Newbie
Location
UK
Car(s)
MK7 Golf R
The premise of what you are saying is correct.
Try looking at what a carbon ceramic disc will do to stopping distance:
Carbon-ceramic discs have a higher friction coefficient, so they require less braking distance than cast iron discs. The higher friction coefficient generated by the carbon reduces the braking activation time, which means the car slows down before one with a traditional braking system. According to some studies, on cars with similar tires and brake pads, carbon-ceramic discs make it possible to reduce the braking distance by nearly 10 feet when braking from 62 mph to 0. That is enough space to save a human life or prevent a crash that could damage the car body.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
The premise of what you are saying is correct.
Try looking at what a carbon ceramic disc will do to stopping distance:
Carbon-ceramic discs have a higher friction coefficient, so they require less braking distance than cast iron discs. The higher friction coefficient generated by the carbon reduces the braking activation time, which means the car slows down before one with a traditional braking system. According to some studies, on cars with similar tires and brake pads, carbon-ceramic discs make it possible to reduce the braking distance by nearly 10 feet when braking from 62 mph to 0. That is enough space to save a human life or prevent a crash that could damage the car body.
We are talking about MK7s here and what folks are typically upgrading from and to, not Audi RS6s with brakes that cost $10K to replace wear parts. You still are at the limit of your tires either way in my mind. If the CoF is higher I still don't see how you will stop any shorter if your street tires can't put that to the ground.
 

Visceral

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Northbrook, IL
Tigeo is correct. At the end of the day, you will only stop as quickly as your tires grip will allow. Bigger brakes are not the answer if you are only interested in shorter stopping distances.

Fade is another subject.
 

DarkArrow

Drag Racing Champion
Location
OC
Car(s)
'18 R
The premise of what you are saying is correct.
Try looking at what a carbon ceramic disc will do to stopping distance:
Carbon-ceramic discs have a higher friction coefficient, so they require less braking distance than cast iron discs. The higher friction coefficient generated by the carbon reduces the braking activation time, which means the car slows down before one with a traditional braking system. According to some studies, on cars with similar tires and brake pads, carbon-ceramic discs make it possible to reduce the braking distance by nearly 10 feet when braking from 62 mph to 0. That is enough space to save a human life or prevent a crash that could damage the car body.

You're trying to break physics, which doesn't work. The only part of your car touching the ground are the tires. If you can lock up your wheels under braking you are at max braking capacity because you're using the maximum friction available between your car and the road. The tire no longer has enough grip with the road to continue rolling and begins to slide. The rotor has now stopped moving. At this point, the friction coefficient of brakes doesn't matter since the rotor isn't moving. ABS kicks in because cars are easier to control when the wheels are rolling vs skidding. Your ABS reduces the clamping force of the calipers on the rotor to unlock the wheel. So, you've now reduced the braking force because the initial clamping force has overcome the friction between the tire and the road. How does a higher mu between the pads and rotor help?

My guess in both tigeo's example and the information you've presented is due to decreased rotating mass. BBKs and most aftermarket brakes use lighter rotors which means less rotating mass that needs to be slowed down. This has nothing to do with braking power, braking force, friction coefficients or anything other than you have a lighter object you need to stop. Lighter objects mean less energy and less energy needs to be converted to heat to stop the car.

The best way to decrease braking distance is to get stickier tires. This will increase the friction between the car and the road, thus allowing more clamping force to be applied before the wheels lock.


Edit: Back to being on topic. OP, why don't you feel confident braking at higher speeds? Stg 2 is quite a bit more power over stock, and while I don't drive very aggressive on the street, my factory R brakes could not handle track duty at that power level. Like GTI Jake's video said, going bigger is mainly about heat management.
 
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tigeo

Autocross Champion
My guess in both tigeo's example and the information you've presented is due to decreased rotating mass.
Just to be clear - my example showed what we are saying (it sounds like you are saying that I think you stop shorter with a BBK) - that a BBK doesn't stop any shorter/faster than the stock brakes on the same tires. The slight improvement on my Dragy graphs (2') could have been a number of factors and as I said - we'll call it the same/within the scope of the variables involved.
 

jay745

What Would Glenn Danzig Do
Location
Slightly Outside Chicago
Car(s)
Mk6 racecar, Tacoma
You're trying to break physics, which doesn't work. The only part of your car touching the ground are the tires. If you can lock up your wheels under braking you are at max braking capacity because you're using the maximum friction available between your car and the road. The tire no longer has enough grip with the road to continue rolling and begins to slide. The rotor has now stopped moving. At this point, the friction coefficient of brakes doesn't matter since the rotor isn't moving. ABS kicks in because cars are easier to control when the wheels are rolling vs skidding. Your ABS reduces the clamping force of the calipers on the rotor to unlock the wheel. So, you've now reduced the braking force because the initial clamping force has overcome the friction between the tire and the road. How does a higher mu between the pads and rotor help?

My guess in both tigeo's example and the information you've presented is due to decreased rotating mass. BBKs and most aftermarket brakes use lighter rotors which means less rotating mass that needs to be slowed down. This has nothing to do with braking power, braking force, friction coefficients or anything other than you have a lighter object you need to stop. Lighter objects mean less energy and less energy needs to be converted to heat to stop the car.

The best way to decrease braking distance is to get stickier tires. This will increase the friction between the car and the road, thus allowing more clamping force to be applied before the wheels lock.
All of this. Everything else is wrong.
 

R Golf

Go Kart Champion
Location
Lenox, MA
Glad Tigeo added actual data and DarkArro's welcome additions including the question that is asked far too infrequently...WHY do you need to upgrade?

I get so tired talking about this with people looking to "upgrade" brakes without them knowing what they are trying to improve. Once you have fade/feel under control, most often via great pads and fluid, the only thing bigger brakes are going to get you are bigger bills, especially for street driving.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Just to add a little more fuel to the fire won’t front suspension setup have a hand in this as well?
I don't think it will improve tire grip in a straight line enough to change this.
 
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