Left foot braking in Golf R for autox

[GTIfan99]

My mk8 GTI with a tune already can't put power down out of a corner, left foot braking would not make it faster on track or autocrossing. If you're stock power, I can see the benefit. Tuned, I'm already having to really, really baby the throttle on corner exits or I just light up both fronts. It's kind of nuts.

 

[Pineapple]

Not autox, but I did some serious work today getting the technique down on my simulator driving in AC and dang yo - it wasn't hard getting the modulation down, actually the harder part was positioning so I didn't get my slipper stuck under the clutch coming back up. Took about 30 mins to get the hang of it, after that it was real go-kart hours.

 

[victorofhavoc]

My mk8 GTI with a tune already can't put power down out of a corner, left foot braking would not make it faster on track or autocrossing. If you're stock power, I can see the benefit. Tuned, I'm already having to really, really baby the throttle on corner exits or I just light up both fronts. It's kind of nuts.

There are pro drivers who don't left foot brake. It's not a required skill to go fast, but the one benefit i see with turbo cars is getting onto the gas sooner so you can actually have power when you tip the throttle in. It's entirely unnecessary in my NA car where torque is instant.

It's not useful for stock because the car shuts off the throttle after the brake is depressed in stock tune. You can add all the throttle you want, but it won't actually do anything while the brake is still depressed. Worse yet, you have to lift your foot off the throttle and then go back on if you depressed it before the brake was released.

 

[jay745]

There are pro drivers who don't left foot brake. It's not a required skill to go fast, but the one benefit i see with turbo cars is getting onto the gas sooner so you can actually have power when you tip the throttle in. It's entirely unnecessary in my NA car where torque is instant.

It's not useful for stock because the car shuts off the throttle after the brake is depressed in stock tune. You can add all the throttle you want, but it won't actually do anything while the brake is still depressed. Worse yet, you have to lift your foot off the throttle and then go back on if you depressed it before the brake was released.

I disagree with you 100%

Left foot braking is mainly used to transfer weight while still on power.

And if you have a left foot braking enabled tune, you don't have to do this silly dance of lifting off throttle etc.

 

[victorofhavoc]

I disagree with you 100%

Left foot braking is mainly used to transfer weight while still on power.

And if you have a left foot braking enabled tune, you don't have to do this silly dance of lifting off throttle etc.

Adding power lifts the front and transfers weight back. Braking pushes weight forward. No input, you're flat front to rear (assuming no added rake other setup tweaks).

At any point after turn in your braking should be reducing as your inputs change. This will continue to push weight back from peak brake G because you're not increasing the braking force anymore. At which point are you suggesting that you want to add brake again to shift balance forward again while also being on power? If you look at an ideal speed chart the top of the curve should be a shark fin that indicates a smooth weight transition. Lfb doesn't change anything about the weight transition. You still need to be smooth off the brake. The only thing it does change is time from brake to throttle, which matters more in a car with a 300ms throttle to power lag than a 15ms lag. Most pro/semi-pro (Ross Bentley, apex, skip Baber, etc) coaching programs teach that the 1-2ft in front of the apex are usually your dead zone where no brake or throttle input is applied. If you have turbo lag, it's a great place to start building boost.

Agreed on the second part... My comment was "not useful for stock..." With a tune, that changes, but also most tunes are for peak torque and power numbers, so like gtifan pointed out, you'll blow the tires off with torque if you build too much boost too soon.

 

[jay745]

Adding power lifts the front and transfers weight back. Braking pushes weight forward. No input, you're flat front to rear (assuming no added rake other setup tweaks).

At any point after turn in your braking should be reducing as your inputs change. This will continue to push weight back from peak brake G because you're not increasing the braking force anymore. At which point are you suggesting that you want to add brake again to shift balance forward again while also being on power? If you look at an ideal speed chart the top of the curve should be a shark fin that indicates a smooth weight transition. Lfb doesn't change anything about the weight transition. You still need to be smooth off the brake. The only thing it does change is time from brake to throttle, which matters more in a car with a 300ms throttle to power lag than a 15ms lag. Most pro/semi-pro (Ross Bentley, apex, skip Baber, etc) coaching programs teach that the 1-2ft in front of the apex are usually your dead zone where no brake or throttle input is applied. If you have turbo lag, it's a great place to start building boost.

Agreed on the second part... My comment was "not useful for stock..." With a tune, that changes, but also most tunes are for peak torque and power numbers, so like gtifan pointed out, you'll blow the tires off with torque if you build too much boost too soon.

Different styles of driving I guess. When I started getting serious with track driving ~10 years ago I had a great instructor that spent a season with me and always focused on weight management, teaching me about transferring weight on power to be faster then analyzing the data and comparing corners where I shifted weight by left foot braking vs not. The data for me told a clear story that it's faster

 

[GTIfan99]

You're both saying the same thing, but Jay is talking about applying the method in a manual and everyone else is talking about doing it in their DSG's.

Jay's saying you use it after turning, during speed maintenance phase vs everyone else with DSG braking with the left foot.

 

[victorofhavoc]

You're both saying the same thing, but Jay is talking about applying the method in a manual and everyone else is talking about doing it in their DSG's.

Jay's saying you use it after turning, during speed maintenance phase vs everyone else with DSG braking with the left foot.

My statement is the same with an auto or manual...

In general, peak weight transfer during braking occurs up to the turn in point. From there you trail brake and continue to reduce brake input up to the apex (and more often than not the 2ft or so before the apex). This keeps reducing the weight over the front gradually as the front slowly lifts. At some point before (or at) the apex, you're adding throttle, and the more lag your engine has, the sooner you have to be on throttle.

I don't see where you're "transferring weight while still on power". There's the idea of maintaining nose down on turn in with trail braking, but you don't need lfb there. There's the idea of adding power while on brake to build boost or get back into power sooner, and that's super valid. Using brake after you've started adding power on exit I don't really see, as even mild reduction in throttle after wot can pitch the rear and transfer a lot of momentum forward.

Don't get me wrong, lfb is a valid technique and can certainly be helpful, but it's not a critical skill set to being faster in most amateur cases. My advanced de students in manuals i encourage to try lfb in certain corners and based on their car and balance. My intermediate de students in autos I encourage to start lfb if they're in boosted cars or they have a hard time with being smooth coming off the brake. We're looking for perfect sharkfin curves on the speedchart, no sudden added deceleration or shakiness to the line at the bottom of the curve.

I just don't think it's a worthwhile skill to focus on until you've already figured out the perfect line, turn in, track out, brake application, brake de-application, and general smoothness in weight transfer.

Read from Ross, he rocks! https://speedsecrets.com/the-pros-cons-of-left-foot-braking/

 

[GTIfan99]

My statement is the same with an auto or manual...

In general, peak weight transfer during braking occurs up to the turn in point. From there you trail brake and continue to reduce brake input up to the apex (and more often than not the 2ft or so before the apex). This keeps reducing the weight over the front gradually as the front slowly lifts. At some point before (or at) the apex, you're adding throttle, and the more lag your engine has, the sooner you have to be on throttle.

I don't see where you're "transferring weight while still on power". There's the idea of maintaining nose down on turn in with trail braking, but you don't need lfb there. There's the idea of adding power while on brake to build boost or get back into power sooner, and that's super valid. Using brake after you've started adding power on exit I don't really see, as even mild reduction in throttle after wot can pitch the rear and transfer a lot of momentum forward.

Don't get me wrong, lfb is a valid technique and can certainly be helpful, but it's not a critical skill set to being faster in most amateur cases. My advanced de students in manuals i encourage to try lfb in certain corners and based on their car and balance. My intermediate de students in autos I encourage to start lfb if they're in boosted cars or they have a hard time with being smooth coming off the brake. We're looking for perfect sharkfin curves on the speedchart, no sudden added deceleration or shakiness to the line at the bottom of the curve.

I just don't think it's a worthwhile skill to focus on until you've already figured out the perfect line, turn in, track out, brake application, brake de-application, and general smoothness in weight transfer.

Read from Ross, he rocks! https://speedsecrets.com/the-pros-cons-of-left-foot-braking/

Bro, I want to be the fastest guy at the track day.