Koni GTS Coilover Discussion

[tmw2442]

If I had DCC I'd get the DCC Bilsteins I think but that's me not having driven one, I would think it's pretty good as-is?

I think so, why I've kept it this long with all the other mods. After having ASTs on my Mk6 for a while(multiple years), I went and "downsized" to a DG spring, B8 upgrade, had it for about a year and half, before I bought the Mk7 R and I didn't feel like I was losing out. Where the coilovers "better", yes. But by such a margin with my driving, were they "worth" it. No, twice to 3 times the price for the margin in "performance."

IMO good shocks with sways, and a good alignment is the best for investment/reward on a primarily daily.

 

[tigeo]

I think so, why I've kept it this long with all the other mods. After having ASTs on my Mk6 for a while, I went and "downsized" to a DG spring, B8 upgrade and I didn't feel like I was losing out. IMO good shocks with sways, and a good alignment is the best for investment/reward on a primarily daily.

@DerHase I believe will concur....his lap times are respectible at VIR vs. cars with tons more suspension stuff on Koni SAs and some springs (even on stock springs).

 

[Nineeightyone]

Allow myself...to quote myself and if I was going "all out" in my current setup I would get a more aggressive tire, similar to what you stated...and add the B8s DCC shocks.

Lower budget, get the shocks, swaybars, an good zero toe alignment, cheaper rear bushing upgrade for the LCAs, than TTRS arms (I think the mk8 Rs have a stiffer bushing, anyway...) and some type of camber adding top hat; minimum. You'll get tons of capability for the lowest investment. I generally never buy a spring kit from a company that won't tell me what the rate is and holds the number it like some secret sauce, unless I know someone who spent the money first, and I can at least ride in preferably take a drive the setup.

View attachment 310712

Yeah, I think his plan is to keep the DCC and kind of build around it -- I'm pushing for sway bars, tune, as much tire as he can get within class limitations. I'll have to point him to your list as far as stuff to do.

 

[tmw2442]

Yeah, I think his plan is to keep the DCC and kind of build around it -- I'm pushing for sway bars, tune, as much tire as he can get within class limitations. I'll have to point him to your list as far as stuff to do.

I don't know what class they want to be in. I haven't kept up with the SCCA rulebook for the past couple years, but a lot of what I have installed could up class him significantly.

 

[tigeo]

I don't know what class they want to be in. I haven't kept up with the SCCA rulebook for the past couple years, but a lot of what I have installed my upclass him where you don't want to be.

Take my moderate setup (and disregarding the OE turbo upgrade that automatically kicks me to these classes....but just on some of the suspension upgrades)...Max classing for SCCA TT and XA for SCCA autoX. Dumb but the rules are the rules!

 

[tmw2442]

Take my moderate setup (and disregarding the OE turbo upgrade that automatically kicks me to these classes....but just on some of the suspension upgrades)...Max classing for SCCA TT and XA for SCCA autoX. Dumb but the rules are the rules!

Yeah you got to keep the rule nerd rage to a minimum, make sure you're checking those PCV valve part numbers.... , wouldn't want those to subtract a .1 from the lap time.

 

[tigeo]

Yeah you got to keep the rule nerd rage to a minimum, make sure you're checking those PCV valve part numbers.... , wouldn't wait those to subtract a .1 from the lap time.

Dude....amazing term there....LOVE IT! RULE NERD RAGE!!!!!!!!

(pushes up glasses) actktually those subframe locking collars you have (I looked while you were in the bathroom) are not allowed in tuner-boi class 3.46 (repeating) and you should be in max 4.67 (repeating) with the cars with wings/cages that were trailered in, sorry bro. Also I did note a non-factory part...the PCV is not from this generation Golf so again...sorry....need to talk to the director on this w/r to cheating here and hopefully he won't DQ you.

 

[tmw2442]

Dude....amazing term there....LOVE IT! RULE NERD RAGE!!!!!!!!

(pushes up glasses) actktually those subframe locking collars you have (I looked while you were in the bathroom) are not allowed in tuner-boi class 3.46 (repeating) and you should be in max 4.67 (repeating) with the cars with wings/cages that were trailered in, sorry bro. Also I did note a non-factory part...the PCV is not from this generation Golf so again...sorry....need to talk to the director on this w/r to cheating here and hopefully he won't DQ you.

Yeah, missed what most of the sport is for, and are ruining it.

They just don't want to get out lap'd by a station wagon, with less farkles. There is NOOOO way, they could be a better driver...than MEEEE, I paid 5K MSRP over sticker for this min/max .3333333 repeating, class specific car, and you beat me....REEEEEEEEEE....must be the PCV valve or a subframe collar. Those nerds, need to go get wooped on by 9 year olds at the local go kart track and come back after they have have the proper attitude adjustment, especially before they dump thousands of their face-ta-gram-tube subscriber budget into a car.

"uh...I saw your clutch pedal return spring was removed, and that puts you into the class with the F-22 Raptor...soo.....i'm telling"

Overwhelming majority of it just "gate keeps" people out of the sport. It should be 20 percent "racing", 50 percent hanging with your buddies having fun, 30 percent trying to pickup sage information from the old dudes who have 30+ years in the hobby, driving shitbox 25 year plus fossils. Anyway....back to coilovers, hopefully.

 

[tmw2442]

Yeah, I think his plan is to keep the DCC and kind of build around it -- I'm pushing for sway bars, tune, as much tire as he can get within class limitations. I'll have to point him to your list as far as stuff to do.

I wouldn't "tune" right out of the box, correct me if you've seen different numbers, but it's got low 300s to the wheels out of box, which is plenty, imo.

Drive it with stock software first for a handful of events, spend that money on decent pads and fluid, changing all the diff/bevel box fluids once a year, if it's seeing events on the regular. Oil change in the first 250 to 500 mi, another one around 1K miles later, then around that time, change out the diffs/gearbox to get break-in contaminates out, and check the screen on the haldex, for mk7s; or both screens on the newer mk8 diff. I believe is has two pumps one; for each side. I'm sure people will say, that's overkill, but fluids are cheap.... mechanicals are expensive. If a problem is developing, quickest way to know if looking at the fluids, and catch it earlier than later.

Make sure temps stay in check. Which, IMO, I don't like to see more than 250s-260 F oil going for it, more than that your likely going to need more airflow to keep temps in check and chasing cooling mods. Pulling out the weather seal at the top of the hood around the cowl will help as a start. Which is generally why, if I am going to track, I track around my area I go in early spring and Fall primarily, before the days get super hot.

 

[DerHase]

I have a question. Why are you not corner balanced for tracking?

Can’t corner balance if you don’t have adjustable spring perches.

I’m just on Koni Special Actives and 034 springs. Nothing fancy.

When did he say he didn't corner balance?

I didn’t (AFAIK), but also I don’t.

Focusing on driving better when it’s just HPDE gets you a lot further in my experience.

AUTOCROSSER FOCUS ONLY (Track guys need stability and predictable understeer so they don't hit stuff)

I think the whole spring rate discussion is actually miss-understood and blown out of importance.

I've run anywhere from 350-750 front and 350-1000 rear springs on my Mk7. The only takeaway from all that testing (and I tested a lot) was that the spring rate needs to matched to the racing surface, and that I like a equal F/R wheel rate (which equates to a "higher" rear spring rate) spring setup so that when the front hits a bump, the rear is ready to react quickly and not take long to recover to neutral.

I don't run this setup for oversteer. It does not work. I don't run high rear bar and high rear springs for oversteer, it becomes unpredictable and sliding is slower.

I focus on added traction through a stiffer front bar for less front camber loss, and as much static camber that I can get.

The real magic is 1/8 inch of rear toe out. I'm spilling the tea here guys, not enough of you all are trying this. This is where the rotation comes from, not a big rear bar. A big rear bar is just less grip everywhere. The handling does not feel like rear sliding, it's just the rear following the front, generally very little understeer and lots of grip.

Big front bar setups are being slept on.

Pick the spring rate you want, and send it. I have a preference, but rear toe out will make a bigger difference than the "perfect" spring combo.

Oh, and for shock settings, compliance is key. I don't run "more rear rebound" to get rotation either. In a class where you can pick coil overs, spring rates, shock settings and alignment, over dampening the rear is entirely unnecessary. My Ohlin's are set to a very comfortable level so that I have maximum contact with the bumpy lot I race on. I don't change the settings between track and street and I daily drive 400/650, big front and rear bar.

This is all solid advice overall.

The trick to making a big front bar work well is to ensure the bushings don’t bind.

I lube my H&R bushings yearly (even though not technically “necessary”).

Most of this beyond r. toe out is also good for road course (a bit of r. toe in for high-speed stability). I run a big front bar as does @DerHase with good results and it's often poo-poo'd as adding understeer...not my experience.

Yeah, 26/26mm H&R bars were a good bang for the buck on stock springs.

Majority of my time found on track was all in trail braking more aggressively. Lets you lean on the outside corner a bit more.

IMO the only caveat is *if you don’t have enough camber (and to a lesser extent, caster), the big front bar will benefit you more.

I can see the need to not run the absolute stiffest front bar if you have higher spring rates for example. Does it mean stock bar is better? No idea.

Swaybars for a ton of great work for these cars, and definitely the front should not be overlooked, but often it is left out, unfortunately before adding coilovers. Most throw money straight at a fancy set of chinese-i-um coilovers; when first they should have went with sways, some type of camber add to the front, a good set of shocks (B8s,etc), and an alignment that is not just "green on the machine..." settings. Which is better money spent than the standard off the shelf cheaper coilover kits, the companies come out with.

On the mk5/6 chassis, with the AST 4100s #350/300 as I daily'd it around a 355mm ride height. 2-3 clicks of front rebound, and 5-7 rear depending on AutoX or HPDE conditions, but I could adjust the rear without removing anything; which was nice, I wish these KONIs would have a better rear adjustment and would pay more money for that feature. Used an 1/8 toe out in the rear with the rear bar on mid/front soft for local autocross, and zero toe for the road/HPDE and soft on both f/r bars, kept the car fairly neutral.

On my Mk7, I viewed doing a front sway and an opportunity to do the Aluminum Subframe, and TTRS arms to get a bushing and camber adjustable upgrade for the front.

Maybe KONI should have called these GTs(more daily oriented without a good way to adjust damping in the rear), and have made the GTS moniker for 300-500ish more, with a more convent rear adjuster and GT (leaning daily, and with the current adjustment setup) or GTS (leaning higher) out of box spring rates and better adjustable rears. Or even better, the shocks/mounts by themselves, and let me go get std 2.25ID springs for whatever rate preference from X companies, but they have to offer a warranty on a product, so I understand why that probably would never be an option.

x1000

Camber + roll stiffness and good shocks will outperform most garbage China shocks.

Most drivers think they “need” faster response or whatever… when in reality they need to work on smoothing out and blending inputs.

Yeah, my setup is very similar. I kept the stock DCC springs and shocks for now, with all the other mods. For the amount of HPDE events I do, this kit for $1500 is close to tempting, I just can't justify to myself to spend double on something like Öhlins(etc), for a car that is 75 percent daily, 25 percent weekend fun fast road, and maybe a HPDE or two tops a year. Why I am leaning to just get the electronic B6s/B8s for $800 ish and save the other half for the tire fund.

I’m somewhat in the same boat. I’m happy enough with my current setup which outperforms much more $$$ setups (other MQBs with expensive suspension stuff) that I’ve seen on my home track.

IF my shocks get blown or something I think I’ll make the plunge. The next cheapest shock I’d consider is Ohlins, and that’s really overkill for a daily/fun car.

I think so, why I've kept it this long with all the other mods. After having ASTs on my Mk6 for a while(multiple years), I went and "downsized" to a DG spring, B8 upgrade, had it for about a year and half, before I bought the Mk7 R and I didn't feel like I was losing out. Where the coilovers "better", yes. But by such a margin with my driving, were they "worth" it. No, twice to 3 times the price for the margin in "performance."

IMO good shocks with sways, and a good alignment is the best for investment/reward on a primarily daily.

And best part is it doesn’t make the car miserable to drive.

I’m big on evaluating what I “need” using a rough cost-benefit analysis.

These cars make huge gains with little $$ (this goes for suspension, power, and braking IMO). But once you pick that low hanging fruit, it gets far more $$$ or you have to really start making sacrifices in driveability or reliability.

@DerHase I believe will concur....his lap times are respectible at VIR vs. cars with tons more suspension stuff on Koni SAs and some springs (even on stock springs).

Yup.

 

[tmw2442]

And best part is it doesn’t make the car miserable to drive.

Bingo, which is my largest concern from these, seeing a 500lb spring rate without seeing some real world feedback. I don't want to drop 1600 on these, then in 6 months.

Spend the effort doing another swap to the B8s, going though another round of a youngster, alignment tech fresh out of his tech school tell me....but what your asking for isn't green on the screen, it's going to cause wear.....and my boss won't let me, I'm on probation here...

Then having to get rid of these to some forum low baller, asking me bro, will you take $500 for these *shipped to the west coast...how low do they go? I can get BCs off ebay for that..... Do you know if this is going to scrap my china-niz-ium backyard str8 pipe job? I'm looking to SLaaaMM, so low, I got to open my door and get out to pickup my midnight run taco bell drive thru order....blowing a giant avocado toast vape cloud, For my insta subs. Hit me up on the gram, dog, plz, as sometimes I miss my forum DM notifcations for some reason on my new $1600 iphone, peace...

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Bingo, which is my largest concern from these, seeing a 500lb spring rate without seeing some real world feedback. I don't want to drop 1600 on these, then in 6 months.

Spend the effort doing another swap to the B8s, going though another round of a youngster, alignment tech fresh out of his tech school tell me....but what your asking for isn't green on the screen, it's going to cause wear.....and my boss won't let me, I'm on probation here...

Then having to get rid of these to some forum low baller, asking me bro, will you take $500 for these *shipped to the west coast...how low do they go? I can get BCs off ebay for that..... Do you know if this is going to scrap my china-niz-ium backyard str8 pipe job? I'm looking to SLaaaMM, so low, I got to open my door and get out to pickup my midnight run taco bell drive thru order....blowing a giant avocado toast vape cloud, For my insta subs. Hit me up on my gram, plz, I barely check my forum DMs, peace...

I don't think the rates are that bad, but the big caveat is that the Ohlins I have include the DFV valve which blows off harsh bumps. The Koni's don't have anything like that which is why they are usually devoid of any real bump valving.

 

[tmw2442]

I don't think the rates are that bad, but the big caveat is that the Ohlins I have include the DFV valve which blows off harsh bumps. The Koni's don't have anything like that which is why they are usually devoid of any real bump valving.

I'm also assuming these KONIs would be at least as decent as 10ish year ago era ASTs, and I know how #500 springs ride on those, which these might not even meet. It wouldn't be the daily experience I would be looking for. I'd also, want to know what the min lowering, as I wouldn't want to go much lower than stock R height, if at all.

 

[ITGUY]

When did he say he didn't corner balance?

You can see it in his spread sheet.. it's not rocket science...

 

[DerHase]

You can see it in his spread sheet.. it's not rocket science...

That’s just an average of both fronts and both rears.

Weight estimates are based on what @xXDavidCXx did a while back IIRC.

My car has actually never even been on scales Never bothered since I can’t corner balance it.

Corner balancing is very low on my list of effort vs benefit.

I just make sure the car isn’t doing anything hateful and drive it. Too many people focus on finding the “perfect” setup when they’re just doing HPDE or autocrossing locally etc for fun. This is different if you’re trying to make a nationally competitive car of course, but IMO the driving should still be the main focus.


But on the topic of corner balancing:
99% of people corner balance wrong. Cross weight is a dumbass circle track thing. It HAPPENS to work out right for cars with 50/50 weight distribution, but the further you deviate from that, the more worthless it becomes.

I’ve found more speed in jacking weight to the RF corner until LF = RF, or very close to it (more below).

FWD cars generally lift an inside rear wheel when cornering hard. Once your wheel is off the ground there is no more weight to transfer. Any kind of focus spent on the rear weights is useless as soon as you pitch it into a corner.

Making both front weights as close to each other as possible will help with putting power down which is really where time is made up on a FWD car.


As for RWD stuff, cross weight or wedge is still dumb.

In that case I corner balance to remove chassis torsional rigidity differences left vs right.

You aim for LF / LR = RF / RR

If you do the math, on a 50/50 F/R weight distribution car, it gives the same result as the “conventional” way using wedge.

This is how Andy Hollis corner balances cars. He knows a thing or two.

On my last car I’d usually aim for halfway between both of the previously described methods.

I’m not terribly picky on setup. Just make the car not suck and drive it. That said if I buy coilovers, I’m going to install them right and corner balance.

/controversial opinion