Koni GTS Coilover Discussion

[xXDavidCXx]

I would assume most on a golf chassis are going to use(want) mid(5) to 1 or 2 clicks firm (7) at the most for fast road street use, being a fast road to light track duty coilover. The ones that would use 8+ clicks firm for track or autoX, probably won't be bothered much about having increased rebound(firmness), when they drive on the street, at least with the provided spring rates.

I would argue the #500 in the rear is too much for *most people if we are talking just mk7-8 golf(s), especially if you running an upgraded rear swaybar. Stock sways, it's probably fine. #350 to #400 spot on for the front. Being able to use/pick standard 2.25 ID springs from multiple manufactures (swift, hyperco, etc) is great for making that car how you want/like it. Nice if you could just buy the shocks, mounts by themselves.

A lot of setup assumptions in these paragraphs.

Each car is tuned different, and each driver has their own shock settings preferences.

 

[ITGUY]

I was a bit off on the specific numbers - but here's the direct quote:





I've already mathed this stuff out a long time ago. This (400/500) is the closest that any off-the-shelf rates have gotten to "correct" out of the box that I'm aware of.

Stock rates for reference:
View attachment 310682

Koni GTS rates:
View attachment 310683

I have a question. Why are you not corner balanced for tracking?

 

[xXDavidCXx]

I have a question. Why are you not corner balanced for tracking?

When did he say he didn't corner balance?

 

[tmw2442]

A lot of setup assumptions in these paragraphs.

Each car is tuned different, and each driver has their own shock settings preferences.

Yes. Definitely making a few assumptions.

My assumptions about their chosen rates could be wrong. If the math says their rates are right, awesome. I'm wrong then. After driving/autoX/HDPE MK5/6 era GTIs, and WRXs with ranging from 300 to 500 + spring rates in various combinations (with mostly AST 4100/5100s series shocks, 2008-2013 vintage, stated to be valved handle up to #600 range). Generally, rebound on the mid to soft settings front and mid to high settings rear. Granted the mk6 had swaybars, GC camber plates, with zero toe in the rear, seemed to be fairly neutral in the 300-350 ish range in the rear with stated farkles. My butt wouldn't call the setups that had 450+ or more rate daily-able long term, dual duty setup. The marketing has them position as a street setup than can do track duty. The chosen rates imo, seem a little high in rear for street use. They might be spot on though, can't wait till someone gets them in hand and post impressions.

Maybe someone with more info can shed light, if they are making R/S3, RS3 specific spring rate SKUs, but I am assuming they are going to sell the same SKU to all VW/Audi MQB range from std golf to RS3 your going to get the same rate(s) for cost on KONIs side (one size fits most application range.)

 

[xXDavidCXx]

Yes. Definitely making a few assumptions.

My assumptions about their chosen rates could be wrong. If the math says their rates are right, awesome. I'm wrong then. After driving/autoX/HDPE MK5/6 era GTIs, and WRXs with ranging from 300 to 500 + spring rates in various combinations (with mostly AST 4100/5100s series shocks, 2008-2013 vintage, stated to be valved handle up to #650 range). Generally, rebound on the mid to soft settings front and mid to high settings rear. Granted the mk6 had swaybars, GC camber plates, with zero toe in the rear, seemed to be fairly neutral in the 300-350 ish range in the rear with stated farkles. My butt wouldn't call the setups that had 450+ or more rate daily-able long term, dual duty setup. For a mostly Track bias though setup, they might be spot on for a Mk7 GTI. Can't wait till someone gets them in hand and post impressions.

Maybe someone with more info can shed light, if they are making R/S3, RS3 specific spring rate SKUs, but I am assuming they are going to sell the same SKU to all VW/Audi MQB range from std golf to RS3 your going to get the same rate(s) for cost on KONIs side (one size fits most application range.)

AUTOCROSSER FOCUS ONLY (Track guys need stability and predictable understeer so they don't hit stuff)

I think the whole spring rate discussion is actually miss-understood and blown out of importance.

I've run anywhere from 350-750 front and 350-1000 rear springs on my Mk7. The only takeaway from all that testing (and I tested a lot) was that the spring rate needs to matched to the racing surface, and that I like a equal F/R wheel rate (which equates to a "higher" rear spring rate) spring setup so that when the front hits a bump, the rear is ready to react quickly and not take long to recover to neutral.

I don't run this setup for oversteer. It does not work. I don't run high rear bar and high rear springs for oversteer, it becomes unpredictable and sliding is slower.

I focus on added traction through a stiffer front bar for less front camber loss, and as much static camber that I can get.

The real magic is 1/8 inch of rear toe out. I'm spilling the tea here guys, not enough of you all are trying this. This is where the rotation comes from, not a big rear bar. A big rear bar is just less grip everywhere. The handling does not feel like rear sliding, it's just the rear following the front, generally very little understeer and lots of grip.

Big front bar setups are being slept on.

Pick the spring rate you want, and send it. I have a preference, but rear toe out will make a bigger difference than the "perfect" spring combo.

Oh, and for shock settings, compliance is key. I don't run "more rear rebound" to get rotation either. In a class where you can pick coil overs, spring rates, shock settings and alignment, over dampening the rear is entirely unnecessary. My Ohlin's are set to a very comfortable level so that I have maximum contact with the bumpy lot I race on. I don't change the settings between track and street and I daily drive 400/650, big front and rear bar.

 

[tigeo]

AUTOCROSSER FOCUS ONLY (Track guys need stability and predictable understeer so they don't hit stuff)

I think the whole spring rate discussion is actually miss-understood and blown out of importance.

I've run anywhere from 350-750 front and 350-1000 rear springs on my Mk7. The only takeaway from all that testing (and I tested a lot) was that the spring rate needs to matched to the racing surface, and that I like a equal F/R wheel rate (which equates to a "higher" rear spring rate) spring setup so that when the front hits a bump, the rear is ready to react quickly and not take long to recover to neutral.

I don't run this setup for oversteer. It does not work. I don't run high rear bar and high rear springs for oversteer, it becomes unpredictable and sliding is slower.

I focus on added traction through a stiffer front bar for less front camber loss, and as much static camber that I can get.

The real magic is 1/8 inch of rear toe out. I'm spilling the tea here guys, not enough of you all are trying this. This is where the rotation comes from, not a big rear bar. A big rear bar is just less grip everywhere. The handling does not feel like rear sliding, it's just the rear following the front, generally very little understeer and lots of grip.

Big front bar setups are being slept on.

Pick the spring rate you want, and send it. I have a preference, but rear toe out will make a bigger difference than the "perfect" spring combo.

Oh, and for shock settings, compliance is key. I don't run "more rear rebound" to get rotation either. In a class where you can pick coil overs, spring rates, shock settings and alignment, over dampening the rear is entirely unnecessary. My Ohlin's are set to a very comfortable level so that I have maximum contact with the bumpy lot I race on. I don't change the settings between track and street and I daily drive 400/650, big front and rear bar.

Most of this beyond r. toe out is also good for road course (a bit of r. toe in for high-speed stability). I run a big front bar as does @DerHase with good results and it's often poo-poo'd as adding understeer...not my experience.

 

[Nineeightyone]

I'm barely-able-to-breathe-without-thinking-about-it dumb and did a matched pair of sway bars -- 26F/28R H&R kit and the car was fantastic. Really looking to do similar on my mk7. I think most people avoid the FSB because compared to the rear, it's a big old pain in the ass.

 

[hanb.1800]

AUTOCROSSER FOCUS ONLY (Track guys need stability and predictable understeer so they don't hit stuff)

I think the whole spring rate discussion is actually miss-understood and blown out of importance.

I've run anywhere from 350-750 front and 350-1000 rear springs on my Mk7. The only takeaway from all that testing (and I tested a lot) was that the spring rate needs to matched to the racing surface, and that I like a equal F/R wheel rate (which equates to a "higher" rear spring rate) spring setup so that when the front hits a bump, the rear is ready to react quickly and not take long to recover to neutral.

I don't run this setup for oversteer. It does not work. I don't run high rear bar and high rear springs for oversteer, it becomes unpredictable and sliding is slower.

I focus on added traction through a stiffer front bar for less front camber loss, and as much static camber that I can get.

The real magic is 1/8 inch of rear toe out. I'm spilling the tea here guys, not enough of you all are trying this. This is where the rotation comes from, not a big rear bar. A big rear bar is just less grip everywhere. The handling does not feel like rear sliding, it's just the rear following the front, generally very little understeer and lots of grip.

Big front bar setups are being slept on.

Pick the spring rate you want, and send it. I have a preference, but rear toe out will make a bigger difference than the "perfect" spring combo.

Oh, and for shock settings, compliance is key. I don't run "more rear rebound" to get rotation either. In a class where you can pick coil overs, spring rates, shock settings and alignment, over dampening the rear is entirely unnecessary. My Ohlin's are set to a very comfortable level so that I have maximum contact with the bumpy lot I race on. I don't change the settings between track and street and I daily drive 400/650, big front and rear bar.

The toe out is an interesting note. I'd thought about trying that for the reasons you've mentioned, guess I'll throw the toe plates on and give it a go.

I'll be trying this Koni setup as it comes out of the box with both front and rear bars, and I expect it will do a lot of things great. I won't be able to give notes on performance at their limit in an autocross or track setting, but I have a few other setups I should be able to compare to in a canyon carving setup. My hope is for a neutral car that doesn't do anything I don't explicitly tell it or expect it to, even with some bumps in the road.

 

[tigeo]

I'm barely-able-to-breathe-without-thinking-about-it dumb and did a matched pair of sway bars -- 26F/28R H&R kit and the car was fantastic. Really looking to do similar on my mk7. I think most people avoid the FSB because compared to the rear, it's a big old pain in the ass.

I run the awd MQB H&R bars - 27 rear/25 front...it's great and yeah...this is mainly b/c the rear is so easy to do vs. the front.

 

[tmw2442]

I run the awd MQB H&R bars - 27 rear/25 front...it's great and yeah...this is mainly b/c the rear is so easy to do vs. the front.

Swaybars for a ton of great work for these cars, and definitely the front should not be overlooked, but often it is left out, unfortunately before adding coilovers. Most throw money straight at a fancy set of chinese-i-um coilovers; when first they should have went with sways, some type of camber add to the front, a good set of shocks (B8s,etc), and an alignment that is not just "green on the machine..." settings. Which is better money spent than the standard off the shelf cheaper coilover kits, the companies come out with.

On the mk5/6 chassis, with the AST 4100s #350/300 as I daily'd it around a 355mm ride height. 2-3 clicks of front rebound, and 5-7 rear depending on AutoX or HPDE conditions, but I could adjust the rear without removing anything; which was nice, I wish these KONIs would have a better rear adjustment and would pay more money for that feature. Used an 1/8 toe out in the rear with the rear bar on mid/front soft for local autocross, and zero toe for the road/HPDE and soft on both f/r bars, kept the car fairly neutral.

On my Mk7, I viewed doing a front sway and an opportunity to do the Aluminum Subframe, and TTRS arms to get a bushing and camber adjustable upgrade for the front.

Maybe KONI should have called these GTs(more daily oriented without a good way to adjust damping in the rear), and have made the GTS moniker for 300-500ish more, with a more convent rear adjuster and GT (leaning daily, and with the current adjustment setup) or GTS (leaning higher) out of box spring rates and better adjustable rears. Or even better, the shocks/mounts by themselves, and let me go get std 2.25ID springs for whatever rate preference from X companies, but they have to offer a warranty on a product, so I understand why that probably would never be an option.

 

[tigeo]

Swaybars for a ton of great work for these cars, and definitely the front should not be overlooked, but often it is left out, unfortunately before adding coilovers. Most throw money straight at a fancy set of chinese-i-um coilovers; when first they should have went with sways, some type of camber add to the front, a good set of shocks (B8s,etc), and an alignment that is not just "green on the machine..." settings. Which is better money spent than the standard off the shelf cheaper coilover kits, the companies come out with.

This. My primary setup is simple on my Sportwagen - B8s/H&R springs, H&R f/r sways, -2 camber up front (Superpro LCAs + Eurosport mounts), 0 toe front/slight toe-in rear/-1.7 camber and a bit of + caster from the LCAs up front. It's a great all-around setup for me that is comfortable on the street and handles "just fine" on the track.

 

[tmw2442]

This. My primary setup is simple on my Sportwagen - B8s/H&R springs, H&R f/r sways, -2 camber up front (Superpro LCAs + Eurosport mounts), 0 toe front/slight toe-in rear/-1.7 camber and a bit of + caster from the LCAs up front. It's a great all-around setup for me that is comfortable on the street and handles "just fine" on the track.

Yeah, my setup is very similar. I kept the stock DCC springs and shocks for now, with all the other mods. For the amount of HPDE events I do, this kit for $1500 is close to tempting, I just can't justify to myself to spend double on something like Öhlins(etc), for a car that is 75 percent daily, 25 percent weekend fun fast road, and maybe a HPDE or two tops a year. Why I am leaning to just get the electronic B6s/B8s for $800 ish and save the other half for the tire fund.

 

[Nineeightyone]

Yeah, my setup is very similar. I kept the stock DCC springs and shocks for now, with all the other mods. For the amount of HPDE events I do, this kit for $1500k is close tempting, I just can't justify to myself to spend double on something like Öhlins(etc), for a car that is 75 percent daily, 25 percent weekend fun fast road, and maybe a HPDE or two tops a year. Why I am leaning to just get the electronic B6s/B8s for $800 ish and save the other half for the tire fund.

Got any recommendations for DCC cars? Buddy of mine has a mk8 with DCC, he's a similar situation to yours (but likely lower budget).

Already got him looking for RPF1s and RE-71RSes

 

[tmw2442]

Got any recommendations for DCC cars? Buddy of mine has a mk8 with DCC, he's a similar situation to yours (but likely lower budget).

Already got him looking for RPF1s and RE-71RSes

Allow myself...to quote myself and if I was going "all out" in my current setup I would get a more aggressive tire, similar to what you stated...and add the B8s DCC shocks.

Lower budget, get the shocks, swaybars, an good zero toe alignment, cheaper rear bushing upgrade for the LCAs, than TTRS arms (I think the mk8 Rs have a stiffer bushing, anyway...) and some type of camber adding top hat; minimum. You'll get tons of capability for the lowest investment. I generally never buy a spring kit from a company that won't tell me what the rate is and holds the number it like some secret sauce, unless I know someone who spent the money first, and I can at least ride in preferably take a drive the setup.

 

[tigeo]

Yeah, my setup is very similar. I kept the stock DCC springs and shocks for now, with all the other mods. For the amount of HPDE events I do, this kit for $1500 is close to tempting, I just can't justify to myself to spend double on something like Öhlins(etc), for a car that is 75 percent daily, 25 percent weekend fun fast road, and maybe a HPDE or two tops a year. Why I am leaning to just get the electronic B6s/B8s for $800 ish and save the other half for the tire fund.

If I had DCC I'd get the DCC Bilsteins I think but that's me not having driven one, I would think it's pretty good as-is?