GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV

Is there a case for using 504/407 approv oil?

knollMk7

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
I was looking at the Lubrizol chart for relative differences between 502 and 504 VW standards. Although I'm a complete no-nothing and know-nothing on engineering-type stuff, it seems to me that the 504 standard provides far more benefits than 502/505 approvals. The big "delete" is phosphorus, which looks to me more like a side effect of zinc anti wear additives rather than having any benefit of its own.


However, anti-wear, anti-aging, anti-sludge etc properties are all at much higher relative levels in 504 oils.


So, more than just making a brand choice, should I be considering 504 oils rather than 502? (504 is backward compatible with 502 with long-drain interval spec, low sulfur.
In the chart, 502 is the gray, 504/507 is the blue)
 

Attachments

  • lubrizol.JPG
    lubrizol.JPG
    110.3 KB · Views: 1,415
Last edited:
H

Huntermike

Guest
504 is a lower SAPS version of 502, with some modernization. 504 starts with lower TBN so it’s possible that 502 does better with extended drain intervals. Look at the ACEA sequences and compare A3/B4(502) to C3(504). https://www.acea.be/uploads/news_documents/ACEA_European_oil_sequences_2016_update_August_2018.pdf. Most of us enthusiasts drain our oil too soon but for the forgetful or ignorant VW owners it can give a higher safety margin before the oil is acidic.

My ‘17 GTi has an under hood sticker that states 502 must be used but I saw a picture of an ‘18 and it states 502, 504 can be used. Since these specs are exclusive of each other, VW seems to be saying that you can use either in the US. I like seeing that an oil meets even more stringent specs like 229.5, A40, and LL01. The 504 equivalent would be 229.51, C40, and LL04.

It’s been almost 2 years since the US required low-sulfur gas. My feeling is that VW feels the old fuel has been used up so their recommendation changed.

I buy oil based on the specs and price. If I found a 504 oil I wouldn’t hesitate to use it. I took advantage of Wally worlds clearance of PPE 0w-40 for $13/jug and am set for a while.
 
Last edited:

knollMk7

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
504 starts with lower TBN so it’s possible that 502 does better with extended drain intervals.
????

504 is an "extended interval" oil so I don't understand your statement. 504, not 502 should do better with longer intervals and your ACEA citation confirms that.

Doesn't the Lubrizol chart show better performance in virtually ALL areas of concern by a 504 oil or am I crazy?
 

TheSwede

Ready to race!
Location
Sweden, Halmstad
Car(s)
Golf7 Alltrack/Cupra
504 for extended intervals. VW 504.00 /507.00 5W-30 is very common used in EU, but of cause you can change it as often you like.
 
H

Huntermike

Guest
????

504 is an "extended interval" oil so I don't understand your statement. 504, not 502 should do better with longer intervals and your ACEA citation confirms that.

Doesn't the Lubrizol chart show better performance in virtually ALL areas of concern by a 504 oil or am I crazy?

502 oil starts with TBN over 10, 504 is >6. 504 is extended interval only when used with low sulfur gasoline. Like I said, it’s possible that 502 can last longer.
 

hooville

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Marietta GA
FWIW, the owners manual from my 2016 GTI requires me to use 502.00 or 504.00 spec oil.
504.00/507.00 oils can be used in any VAG engine with only 1 or 2 exceptions (V-10 PD TDI comes to mind, but I think one other engine also) so they essentially supersede all but 1 or 2 previous specs and also meet the requirements for extended service intervals in ROW VAG engines. I don't believe 502.00 oils are required to meet long service life standards (18K miles or 24 months) although some may as Huntermike pointed out. Since all the 504.00 oils that I have looked into also meet VWs 507.00 diesel specs, and since we also have MK4 & MK7 TDIs I prefer to have one oil that makes our fleet happy so I am using Liqui Moly LongLife III or Top Tec 4200 depending on price/availability!
The oil rabbit hole is despairingly deep and dangerous: go as deep as you dare, make your choice and sleep well at night!
 

ManInTheClouds

Ready to race!
Location
OK
No, VW 504 is made for Central European fuel - which has a smaller sulphur content than US.


Supposedly US fuel is now with parity to EU fuel, but I don't trust the hucksters running the pumps.
 

knollMk7

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
distrust aside, the gas majors (Shell, Exxon etc. even Costco) are now producing all their gas in compliance with the new low sulphur standards which took effect last year. It was, according to the Feds, done in concert with car manufacturers, since for emission purposes, the gov is considering car AND fuel as one emitting unit. Sulphur provides no benefit in gas; it's an impurity to work around or eliminate. It's presence makes it harder for car manufacturers to meet emission standards, so I'm sure that's why the car industry supported the change.

It just appears to me that the multiple benefits of the higher 504 standards in several metrics should be particularly good for turbo cars.
 
H

Huntermike

Guest
It just appears to me that the multiple benefits of the higher 504 standards in several metrics should be particularly good for turbo cars.

Agreed, especially in DI engines. Especially with the fact that small turbocharged engines are the trend towards gaming the EPA numbers.

Looking at trends in UOA’s it appears that the lower TBN on 504 oils still holds up. M1 ESP 5w-30 and Pennzoil Ultra Euro L look pretty impressive.
 

zero10

Ready to race!
I run Pentosin SP-III (504.00/507.00 certified) because I plan on running extended drain intervals (hopefully up to 30,000km) after the warranty expires and I'm trying to get baseline UOA data during the warranty period (15,000km oil change interval). I drive about 30,000km per year so that interval in particular is very convenient for me and lets me line it up with our other vehicles that also receive an oil change once per year.

The price difference between Pentosin's 502 certified oil ($48/5L) and the 504 certified oil ($56/5L) is minimal given how infrequent oil changes are and if it allows me to extend the drain interval later then that's even better. My understanding is that all fuel in the area I live is already low enough in sulphur that I have no concerns there (https://www.canada.ca/en/environmen...uction/fuel-regulations/sulphur-gasoline.html).
 

knollMk7

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
in following up on the 504/507 question: it appears there are only a few oils available in the US (or at least my part of it) that have VW 504 approvals. Most are fairly pricey. However in return it seems like there is recognition that the VW standard is just about the highest in the industry thus allowing a factory approved 20K extended drain interval.

I really don't care about a longer period between changes, (10K is about as far as I'll go) but it seems a better oil would be desirable for the turbo, and for minimizing engine deposits and wear. There may also be a bonus of slightly better gas mileage and maybe a smidge better performance

In case anyone is following this (and to save sorting through all the specs), the most readily available via internet 504/507 oils that I've found are (all 5W30):

Total Ineo Quartz 5W30
Triax 5W-30 Ultra VX Note: with TBN of 8.5 it's not far off 502 requirements of >10
LiquiMoly 4200
Motul X-Clean+
Ravenol VMP
Pentosin SP-III

Edit: and thanks to huntermike:

Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0W-30
Mobil 1 ESP 0w-30 & 5w-30
EDGE Professional LL03 5W-30

I'd be curious if anyone else is going this route?
 
Last edited:

ManInTheClouds

Ready to race!
Location
OK
Given that people on here are scared to run their 502 oil further than 5-7,500mi, I'm not really buying the argument that VW 504 is suddenly fine to use


VW, LiquiMoly, etc. all recommend VW 502 for North America.


MB 229.5 is the most stringent oil spec, other than Ferrari.
 

knollMk7

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
504 is backward compatible with 502 per VW and according at least to Lubrizol (above) it's a far better oil and better for the environment with low-sulfur fuels. Also, it's 100% PAO synthetic which is the nut of the Group III/Group IV debate.


what's not to like about it especially if it's changed on a conservative 10K schedule and not stretched to 20K?
 

ManInTheClouds

Ready to race!
Location
OK
It goes back to the wonder if the sulphur content is suitable for 10k intervals in North America. It's probably fine, but it also probably isn't.


I'd personally use Pennzoil 0w-30 LX if I were looking to use a VW 504 oil.


There is also no such thing as an approved 100% PAO oil.
The manufacture approvals stipulate a certain percentage of mineral oil must be used, which is typically derived from crude oil or natural gas.
 

knollMk7

Ready to race!
Location
Virginia
Since I'm not a petrochemical engineer, I fall back to what is VW approved and go from there:
-My 2018 7.5 manual (VIN-specific) says 502, 504;
-the mfrs literature on the various brands of 504 oil has certain claims of compliance and benefits
-Lubrizol info indicates that 504 oils are superior oils in approved applications, i.e. VW

So I think the comment "It's [504] probably fine, but it also probably isn't" seems speculative and out-of-step with available info including VW itself.
 
Top