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Has anyone traded in a tuned Golf R?

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Fastlax16

Autocross Newbie
Location
Chitown
Car(s)
2019 DBP R
As-is is a great point, and I agree to an extent. But, when you bring residual transferable warranty into play, which the OP is doing, things change; reread the original post.

The OP is deliberately returning to stock, a modification that had knowingly voided/will void the residual warranty, to facilitate making more money in the trade in.

He is knowingly omitting otherwise pertinent and impactful information in order to facilitate financial gain. As such, he clearly meets the definition of fraud by omission.

I read the original post. Read my first post, I sold a previously tuned car to a vw dealer outright earlier this year. The only guarantee I gave them in any paperwork I signed was that the odometer wasn’t rolled back. They had the ability to check the flash counter themselves and didn’t, their problem not mine, no different than not opening the hood to see a cold air intake or missing a giant crack in the windshield. They haven’t come for me yet and I know the guy who bought it let them know it was previously modified.

The only time you’re really going to have a duty to disclose is if there is a real safety issue you are aware of, ie the brakes don’t work below 50 degrees, the airbags aren’t functional etc.

If I sold it private party and advertised that it still had the remaining warranty, yes that would be a problem.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
I read the original post. Read my first post, I sold a previously tuned car to a vw dealer outright earlier this year. The only guarantee I gave them in any paperwork I signed was that the odometer wasn’t rolled back. They had the ability to check the flash counter themselves and didn’t, their problem not mine, no different than not opening the hood to see a cold air intake or missing a giant crack in the windshield. They haven’t come for me yet and I know the guy who bought it let them know it was previously modified.

The only time you’re really going to have a duty to disclose is if there is a real safety issue you are aware of, ie the brakes don’t work below 50 degrees, the airbags aren’t functional etc.

If I sold it private party and advertised that it still had the remaining warranty, yes that would be a problem.

If the buyer knew that it had been tuned then you're off the hook. Unless the buyer denies knowing it had been tuned if warranty work is needed. Then it could be a he said he said issue.
 

Fastlax16

Autocross Newbie
Location
Chitown
Car(s)
2019 DBP R
If the buyer knew that it had been tuned then you're off the hook. Unless the buyer denies knowing it had been tuned if warranty work is needed. Then it could be a he said he said issue.

I'm off the hook. He didn't buy the car from me. I sold it to a vw dealer. They certified a car they shouldn't have, sold it to the new owner and that is their problem, not mine.
 

jimlloyd40

Autocross Champion
Location
Phoenix
Car(s)
2018 SE DSG
I'm off the hook. He didn't buy the car from me. I sold it to a vw dealer. They certified a car they shouldn't have, sold it to the new owner and that is their problem, not mine.

If they sold it as a CPO car then you're clear. It's on them now. I would still advise anyone else to be upfront about it though just to avoid any potential liability.
 

Corprin

Autocross Champion
Location
Magrathea
Car(s)
A car
When I traded in my Honda Accord recently the dealer had me sign paperwork regarding it's "expected remaining warranty." If you have a modded R, that should be under warranty, I assume disclosing the tune would greatly impact the dealers trade in value. I'm wondering if people are just flashing back to stock and not disclosing the tune (which is what I would likely do), but I wonder if the dealer would eventually come back and say you failed to disclose the TD1 flag.

His question is; if he omits notification to the buyer/dealership that modifications, known to him to void the residual transferable warranty, have been done to gain a higher trade in value, is he liable.

Simple answer, yes. It is textbook fraud by omission. Maybe this is a good time to google that phrase?

Not a trade in but I sold my R outright to a vw dealer earlier this year. Former big turbo car that was returned to stock minus the clutch/short shifter. They didn't ask, I didn't volunteer it, and then they certified the car. New owner found me, I apparently left a couple business cards in the glovebox, and was less than pleased.

You sold a 2016 with ~35,xxx miles (per your for sale thread). As this is before the “People First” warranty, the residual of your 5yr/60k powertrain was voided along with any remaining 3yr/36k bumper to bumper. So continued warranty was of no concern at the time of your sale.

They then certified the car and sold it as such with a CPO warranty. New owner was caught with his pants down when he found out his warranty was voided because of your prior actions. Had he, or the dealership, wanted to seek retribution, you are/were liable for damages under the same fraud by omission. You, with intent to defraud, did not disclose the car had been modified in a manner to negate any/all warranties offered by VW on the vehicle, and returned the vehicle to stock to conceal your actions. Whether you did so because they didn’t ask and/or you didn’t offer, or not, is immaterial. You knowingly didn’t disclose information, known to you at the time to affect the possible resale value and VW warranty, to facilitate an increase in the vehicle’s trade value. This is, as is the hypothetical situation poised by the OP, textbook fraud by omission. The difference is, he has hypothetical residual warranty concerns, and you actually did commit fraud.

I read the original post. Read my first post, I sold a previously tuned car to a vw dealer outright earlier this year. The only guarantee I gave them in any paperwork I signed was that the odometer wasn’t rolled back. They had the ability to check the flash counter themselves and didn’t, their problem not mine, no different than not opening the hood to see a cold air intake or missing a giant crack in the windshield. They haven’t come for me yet and I know the guy who bought it let them know it was previously modified.

The only time you’re really going to have a duty to disclose is if there is a real safety issue you are aware of, ie the brakes don’t work below 50 degrees, the airbags aren’t functional etc.

If I sold it private party and advertised that it still had the remaining warranty, yes that would be a problem.

I am not saying anyone is going after you, in your specific situation. The OP is asking, hypothetically, could he be liable for damages if he commits this type of fraud, and the answer is a resounding, yes.

I understand that you think what you did is okay and fully legal, a common issue in our culture, but the fact remains; fraud by omission is illegal. If action, intent, causation, and victimization can be established, such as detailing and defending one’s actions on social media, then the case against you is easily made. Sorry.

I would also suggest you refrain from providing legal advice in matters you clearly do not understand.

TLDR:
F0E36EEC-8598-4B58-86F6-C951B8C5686C.jpeg
 
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JC_451

Autocross Champion
Location
NJ, one of the nice parts.
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
Yo, what (some of) y'all are continually missing is something called Caveat Emptor.

If the dealer buys a car from you, asks you 0 questions, only asks you to sign title transfer, you have 0 obligation beyond that.

Even if you have sold them a car in need of new tires and brake pads. Even if it's tuned and TD1'd. After they take possession of it those all become the dealers problem since it was on -the dealer- to do due diligence at the time of purchase.

Fraud by omission requires that you've actually omitted something you were asked specifically about. If you aren't asked you are under no lawful obligation to disclose anything about the car.

Also, these are near impossible scenarios, we're not talking about selling a used Ferrari here. Unless you private sale the car and specifically lie about the Warranty balance or falsified maintenance records there is 0 chance of any blowback on the seller.
 
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Corprin

Autocross Champion
Location
Magrathea
Car(s)
A car
Yo, what (some of) y'all are continually missing is something called Caveat Emptor.

If the dealer buys a car from you, asks you 0 questions, only asks you to sign title transfer, you have 0 obligation beyond that.

Even if you have sold them a car in need of new tires and brake pads. Even if it's tuned and TD1'd. After they take possession of it those all become the dealers problem since it was on -the dealer- to do due diligence at the time of purchase.

Fraud by omission requires that you've actually omitted something you were asked specifically about. If you aren't asked you are under no lawful obligation to disclose anything about the car.

Also, these are near impossible scenarios, we're not talking about selling a used Ferrari here. Unless you private sale the car and specifically lie about the Warranty balance or falsified maintenance records there is 0 chance of any blowback on the seller.

And you are missing the theories of active and passive concealment. Both of which have been used to reject caveat emptor in numerous judgements. While these theories are mostly applied to real property, they can be applied to consumer goods.

OP, and other posters are intentionally taking actions to conceal their modifications, which knowingly reduce the value of the vehicle, to fraudulently increase said value.

Caveat emptor is a protection of the seller in cases where the defect was known or not known to the seller, AND no intent to conceal was made. The “as-is, no warranty assumed, implied, or promised” clause.

Argument of worn tires or brake pads, even a clutch is moot. These items are consumables, often changed by end user, and legal for change by end user, thus are inspectable AND expected.

Reflashing of the ECU, big turbo, down-pipe, are, in fact, illegal modifications to street cars. All of which void the vehicle’s warranty, an especially hard line manufactures are taking now days. As these modifications are illegal, and in the case of the ECU not easily identified, they are not readily inspectable nor expected.

Returning the vehicle to stock to intentionally conceal value-decreasing attributes is an act of active concealment, thereby establishing the fraud of omission and negating the caveat emptor argument. It is not uncommon for courts to adjudge damages to buyers in such cases, both in cases of real property and consumer goods.

While there is a weak argument for the subsequent poster being liable to the new buyer, there is strong argument for the dealership to seek damages through the fraud.


Fraud by omission requires that you've actually omitted something you were asked specifically about. If you aren't asked you are under no lawful obligation to disclose anything about the car.

This is an incorrect understanding of the principle.

Failing to disclose something you were specifically asked is misrepresentation.

Failing to disclose something you know will be a detriment to your outcome, though not specifically asked about, is omission.

An omission that is conducted to elicit a gain by the omitting party at the loss of the victim, constitutes the fraud.
 

Fastlax16

Autocross Newbie
Location
Chitown
Car(s)
2019 DBP R
His question is; if he omits notification to the buyer/dealership that modifications, known to him to void the residual transferable warranty, have been done to gain a higher trade in value, is he liable.

Simple answer, yes. It is textbook fraud by omission. Maybe this is a good time to google that phrase?



You sold a 2016 with ~35,xxx miles (per your for sale thread). As this is before the “People First” warranty, the residual of your 5yr/60k powertrain was voided along with any remaining 3yr/36k bumper to bumper. So continued warranty was of no concern at the time of your sale.

They then certified the car and sold it as such with a CPO warranty. New owner was caught with his pants down when he found out his warranty was voided because of your prior actions. Had he, or the dealership, wanted to seek retribution, you are/were liable for damages under the same fraud by omission. You, with intent to defraud, did not disclose the car had been modified in a manner to negate any/all warranties offered by VW on the vehicle, and returned the vehicle to stock to conceal your actions. Whether you did so because they didn’t ask and/or you didn’t offer, or not, is immaterial. You knowingly didn’t disclose information, known to you at the time to affect the possible resale value and VW warranty, to facilitate an increase in the vehicle’s trade value. This is, as is the hypothetical situation poised by the OP, textbook fraud by omission. The difference is, he has hypothetical residual warranty concerns, and you actually did commit fraud.



I am not saying anyone is going after you, in your specific situation. The OP is asking, hypothetically, could he be liable for damages if he commits this type of fraud, and the answer is a resounding, yes.

I understand that you think what you did is okay and fully legal, a common issue in our culture, but the fact remains; fraud by omission is illegal. If action, intent, causation, and victimization can be established, such as detailing and defending one’s actions on social media, then the case against you is easily made. Sorry.

I would also suggest you refrain from providing legal advice in matters you clearly do not understand.

TLDR:
View attachment 160794

Yawn. You don't know what you're talking about (evidenced by the fact that you said an ecu tune is hard to identify). I had a duty to disclose information that the buyer couldn't access on their own.

I had no duty to disclose a tune to a Volkswagen dealership capable of scanning the car and seeing the flash counter or td1 flag. They had full access to the car before the transaction, drove it, tossed it up on a lift. I assume they scanned it during their thorough, hour plus, evaluation of the vehicle and didn't care. What I did was perfectly legal, thank you.

You should refrain from providing legal advice online but maybe google duty to disclose and search on here for how easy it is for dealers to find ecu tunes. The more you know.

And I returned the car to stock because aftermarket parts are worth more than stock parts and will be going on my next R and didn't feel like repurchasing parts I had already owned. Returned to stock with intent to defraud my ass.
 
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Fastlax16

Autocross Newbie
Location
Chitown
Car(s)
2019 DBP R

Corprin

Autocross Champion
Location
Magrathea
Car(s)
A car
Damn man. You truly are dumb.
 

Corprin

Autocross Champion
Location
Magrathea
Car(s)
A car
Thought you were done here but I see you aren’t a man of your word. Go on... and try not to make light of mental illness moving forward.


I apologize, had I known you had a mental illness, and not just simply an idiot, I may have not engaged in this discussion with you.
 

Fastlax16

Autocross Newbie
Location
Chitown
Car(s)
2019 DBP R
I apologize, had I known you had a mental illness, and not just simply an idiot, I may have not engaged in this discussion with you.

Resulting to personal attacks is great sign of character.

Have you learned anything about detecting ecu tunes yet, Cochran?
 
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