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Gti Full Suspension Build - Looking for Advice

odessa.filez

Autocross Newbie
Location
Roswell, GA
Car(s)
2016 GSW 1.8tsi auto
Regarding the control-arms-for-camber point, I am looking for about 2 degrees of front camber to start, seeing as the wheel will deflect less with spherical bearings and will therefore need less static camber to compensate. Given all of that, would there be a significant difference in wheel fitment to get -1 from CSS swivels (or camber plates) and another -1 from the control arms vs. -2 from the control arms alone?

For spring rates, I will just use the 70N/mm front and rear that are supplied with coilovers. I don't know how to get a combined rate given the bar rate (which I do not know), if that's what you're asking. If it is, I'd appreciate some help with the calculation if you think it is important to know for setting up the car at this level.

I feel you on the chassis bracing. I'm dubious on the effect of bracing on this chassis given how stiff it is supposed to be from factory. However, for the mounts, I do feel my engine moving quite a bit with just an APR stage 1 low torque tune so the mounts are definitely on my list if only for that reason. I'm not too concerned with lap times or objective speed, just how it feels to drive.

Cooling is gonna be the next phase of mods for me, at minimum I will get an upgraded IC before hitting AX or track.
on the camber wheel fitment, I can provide a small amt of context. I run TTS control.arms with their extendable ball joints. fully extended, I can get to between -2.5 to -3. My 245 tires along with 15x8 wheels would rub, if they weren't smaller than stock diameter. Note that others who've tried the TTS arms have run out of tie rod to safely adjust toe to zero, on GTI spindles (I have not had this problem with Golf steel spindles, but it speaks to a limitation should you try and get more camber from an LCA).

Re spring rate on your coilovers, nothing wrong with what you plan to start with. My comment is more along the lines of having a vision of the ideal for track. It might change your view on choice of bars and thickness.

Your camber choices/limits and spring (roll control) will ultimately be an integrated decision. You can let your tires confirm that for you as you go.

I pursued building a high front camber capacity, thinking it gives me a little more leeway to run softer up front than some. For AX, I have a huge rear spring bias to help the car on slower courses. So much it would be dicey on a fast course and I suspect dangerous on a track.
 

scrllock

Drag Racing Champion
Location
MI
So the OEM dogbone is adequately resilient to handle the extra load placed on it from the stiffer mounts
On stock power it's perfectly fine. If you're adding a ton of torque and launching regularly at high RPM, they do fatigue and fail, but it's not a common issue.

Regarding the control-arms-for-camber point, I am looking for about 2 degrees of front camber to start, seeing as the wheel will deflect less with spherical bearings and will therefore need less static camber to compensate. Given all of that, would there be a significant difference in wheel fitment to get -1 from CSS swivels (or camber plates) and another -1 from the control arms vs. -2 from the control arms alone?
CSS knuckles and R ride height puts the car at -2 with nothing else done. The combo of knuckles, verkline arms, camber plates, and a drop is good for way more than you'd want, which is why I wouldn't bother with all of them. If spherical joints don't bother you, I'd drop the knuckles as they're kinda pricey and just provide extra camber you'll never use.

For functional aero, I think the OEM diffuser is an amazingly well designed piece, I mean the way the car squats around 150-160 mph is crazy. Jokes aside, have you heard of the Verus diffuser? Any thoughts?

Verus and aerofabb make some nice, functional stuff with CFD analysis. I would suggest making sure your coilovers are re-tuned accordingly to compensate for the extra downforce, and to balance it out with functional front aero.

Do you have any personal experience with spherical bearings?

I have not driven GT RS cars but street-driving other cars with heim joints usually makes me want to drive them less, which IMO isn't ideal. Most normal people with RS cars don't daily them either, they get trailered to the track (unless you have youtuber money and need views). Having driven other cars with mid-engine layouts, lighter chassis, double-wishbone suspension and superb braking and steering, it's really disappointing getting back in a Golf. Nothing wrong with the car, they're great, but I would never use "the utmost in feel and dynamic capability" to describe even a modded Golf. But hey, it's your car and you already spent the money on the full verkline kit. I'm eager to hear your thoughts on driveability even with just the trailing arms and LCAs.
 

RingTool

New member
Location
California
Car(s)
R
Just a food for thought a KW Competition 2a kit is close to price of what a Ohlins is, at the moment I have a 3a Competition kit being built to replace my Clubsports below is some basic pricing everything is custom built to your specs

KW Competition 2aEXR and 3aEXR
Front EXR 2-way 40P steel housing – $1,500.00 ea. - $3,000.00 set
Rear EXR 2-way 7075 aluminum w/ piggyback reservoir std or coilover – $1,200.00 ea. – $2,400 set ( same rear damper with a stainless steel line for a “remote” reservoir is an additional $700.00 per axle)
All other cost are the same : springs, spring hardware, top mounts etc.
Can upgrade to a 3-way EXR for an additional $600.00 kit (You can also upgrade to a 3-way later on and does not have to happen now)
Dry break fittings for stainless braided lines are an additional $500.00 per axle, but I’m not sure if you need any of those.

KW Competition 2a
Front inverted monotube dampers 40P steel housings (2-way w/o reservoirs) -- $825.00 ea. -- $1,650.00 pr./set
Rear twin tube dampers (2-way – w/o reservoirs – Aluminum) std or coilover– $650.00 ea. -- $1,250.00 pr./set
Springs and spring hardware (main spring, helper spring, upper spring perch, adjustable perch) – $100.00 per corner.
Front top mounts (camber adjustable) - $275.00 ea.
Rear top mounts for (coilover conversion) -$275.00ea.
 

Oversteermybagel

Ready to race!
Location
Boston
Car(s)
mk7 2017 GTi Sport
I more or less own a subset of the car you are describing: Ohlins with 400lbs/in springs and CSS knuckles to get approximately -2deg of camber and a set of 8.5" alloys with 200tw tires. The car sees a bunch of track time, and if it didn't I would not bother with any of this stuff--by all accounts these modifications have made it a slightly less good street car. If the car was a pure street car I would prefer to drive a stock GTi over mine--other than the preference on how it looks lowered by 15mm

All of these things individually have made a minor impact on track that adds up to a somewhat substantial change altogether. I highly recommend starting with a stock car that has good brake pads and fluid and letting the car progress with you as a driver
 

scrllock

Drag Racing Champion
Location
MI
Just a food for thought a KW Competition 2a kit is close to price of what a Ohlins is, at the moment I have a 3a Competition kit being built to replace my Clubsports below is some basic pricing everything is custom built to your specs
Yeah might as well skip the 1-ways and go straight to 3-ways with remote reservoirs, car is totally undriveable with anything less than $6k coils.

You left yourself logged into your alt account, BTW.
 

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Drag Racing Champion
Location
South Florida
Car(s)
2019 GTI S
For further reference RE camber; I was able to get -2.2 up front on stock springs/struts using Superpro fixed Top Hats and Superpro LCA’s. Took the top hats off after a year due to NVH and went with lowering a springs/dampers kit. LCA’s are still on working well. Less negative camber now overall but a much better ride.
 

RingTool

New member
Location
California
Car(s)
R
Yeah might as well skip the 1-ways and go straight to 3-ways with remote reservoirs, car is totally undriveable with anything less than $6k coils.

You left yourself logged into your alt account, BTW.
gotta look into that....on a side note if you are on a budget the front twin tube Competition 2a are even less than the mono inverted you don't get a mono rear unless you step into a 2aEXR or 3a EXR fyi.
 

GTI Jake

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte, NC
So the OEM dogbone is adequately resilient to handle the extra load placed on it from the stiffer mounts (in the sense that the dogbone might become a comparatively weaker link when compared to an OEM setup)? 100k miles speaks for itself I suppose. The Verkline front subframe comes with a non-voided subframe bushing, hopefully that performs similarly to the BFI insert with respect to the dogbone. I was just thinking to throw it in because I'll be in there regardless, but if you say that it and the OEM are functionally the same, then I will likely skip that part.

On the spherical bearings, I have read so many mixed reports from rattles and creaks in the first couple miles to years of trouble free performance. I am hoping that the rubber boots and PTFE lining will keep them quiet for at least a year, at which point I will assess whether the added performance is worth the added NVH. If not, I will have some solid rubber bushings pressed in. Do you have any personal experience with spherical bearings?

I’ve been a aircraft mechanic for the last decade, so I deal with worn spherical bearings somewhat regularly even though aviation is a great environment (much less debris to work their way in to induce wear).

On the side job side of things, Baun Performance, always recommend against them. The positives are far out weighed by the negatives unless it’s a purpose built race vehicle that gets torn down regularly for inspections (like aircraft).
 

jmblur

Autocross Champion
Location
Massachusetts
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
I more or less own a subset of the car you are describing: Ohlins with 400lbs/in springs and CSS knuckles to get approximately -2deg of camber and a set of 8.5" alloys with 200tw tires. The car sees a bunch of track time, and if it didn't I would not bother with any of this stuff--by all accounts these modifications have made it a slightly less good street car. If the car was a pure street car I would prefer to drive a stock GTi over mine--other than the preference on how it looks lowered by 15mm

All of these things individually have made a minor impact on track that adds up to a somewhat substantial change altogether. I highly recommend starting with a stock car that has good brake pads and fluid and letting the car progress with you as a driver
I'm running similar. I have f+r sway bars (superpro front, neuspeed rear) and RS3 LCA bushings as well. Ohlins have a much stiffer spring on the rear (110N).

Ohlins definitely made a HUGE difference at autocross, but you do pay the penalty on the road. The car isn't uncomfortable but it's stiff. I'm going to switch out the CSS knuckles for Vorshlag plates to be class compliant next year and expect that will be a downgrade for sure. I drive around Boston so I'll give you a run for the money on bad roads!

For primarily street use, I'd consider the RS3 or BFI LCA bushings to tighten up handling some with minimal impact as a DD.

Remember Porsche GT cars aren't designed for DD as well, they're track cars that you can drive to the track relatively comfortably. That said, I'm within spitting distance of an instructor-driven GT4 at AX with my setup now, there's a lot more time to be had from an upgrade of the nut behind the steering wheel.
 

bfury5

Drag Racing Champion
Location
CT
Besides the engineering aspect of the DFV, is there anything that really compels you to use the Ohlins?

Regarding the control-arms-for-camber point, I am looking for about 2 degrees of front camber to start, seeing as the wheel will deflect less with spherical bearings and will therefore need less static camber to compensate. Given all of that, would there be a significant difference in wheel fitment to get -1 from CSS swivels (or camber plates) and another -1 from the control arms vs. -2 from the control arms alone?

For spring rates, I will just use the 70N/mm front and rear that are supplied with coilovers. I don't know how to get a combined rate given the bar rate (which I do not know), if that's what you're asking. If it is, I'd appreciate some help with the calculation if you think it is important to know for setting up the car at this level.

I feel you on the chassis bracing. I'm dubious on the effect of bracing on this chassis given how stiff it is supposed to be from factory. However, for the mounts, I do feel my engine moving quite a bit with just an APR stage 1 low torque tune so the mounts are definitely on my list if only for that reason. I'm not too concerned with lap times or objective speed, just how it feels to drive.

Cooling is gonna be the next phase of mods for me, at minimum I will get an upgraded IC before hitting AX or track.
  • Added static camber isn't really used to offset the deflections of suspension bushings. That's a factor, but not a huge one. It's more used to compensate for the camber-loss geometry of a Macpherson strut design.
  • If you're 100% sold on using the verkline kit, it should offer all the camber you need. No real reason to do knuckles at that point.
  • Is this truly just a DD? Springrate varies based on use.
Cup2s maybe not, but some Yoko a052s are on the list for this summer for sure.

For functional aero, I think the OEM diffuser is an amazingly well designed piece, I mean the way the car squats around 150-160 mph is crazy. Jokes aside, have you heard of the Verus diffuser? Any thoughts?
A052s will disintegrate if you daily drive them with lots of miles, plan on a second set of wheels or 2x sets of tires for the summer if you're planning on using them.

My take:
As others have said, sphericals on the road are no fun. If I were you, I would ditch the verkline kit (which is all sphericals) and settle for a camber plate (one spherical per side) instead. They're not as likely to get gummed up with debris compared to a LCA spherical due to the position, and when you do need to change sphericals eventually it's only 2. But that's just me
 

Oversteermybagel

Ready to race!
Location
Boston
Car(s)
mk7 2017 GTi Sport
For reference here is a picture of my car going multiple degrees of positive camber with 70N springs and -2deg of static
 

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Oversteermybagel

Ready to race!
Location
Boston
Car(s)
mk7 2017 GTi Sport
  • Added static camber isn't really used to offset the deflections of suspension bushings. That's a factor, but not a huge one. It's more used to compensate for the camber-loss geometry of a Macpherson strut design.
There was a Vorshlag blog post that indicated that bushing deflection was a more serious issue with McStrut than kinematics. But they are also in the business of selling sphericals
 

odessa.filez

Autocross Newbie
Location
Roswell, GA
Car(s)
2016 GSW 1.8tsi auto
I'm running.somewhere between 500-600 lbs in up front, stock bar or no bar, > -4.5 camber and still get outside tire wear at AX.
 
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