Good centering rings

[Roald]

I recently mounted Konig Hypergrams in 18" along with them I also picked up Konigs 66.5-57.1mm rings.
Well the rings fit snug into the wheel, but they're loose on the hub. I didn't measure it but I would say there is 2-4mm of play there. I did get new conical lugs for these as well, but at about 65+mpg I get a solid vibration. It also seems to come and go so I assume this is a ring issue vs. wheel balance.

How much play is there supposed to be on the hub? I assume very little otherwise what is the point. I'm guessing 2-4mm is out of spec.

If that is all correct I think I'll be needing to try different rings. Can someone recommend some? I'll be swapping back to oem wheels somewhat regularly for autox days as well so it can't be on hub/permanent... if that even exists.

 

[Maiden69]

If you torque the wheels in the right order it should get rid of the vibration unless the wheel/tire are not balanced properly. I tend to prefer aluminum rings, the ones I buy are not the cheapest, but they are very good. They are from Motorsport-Tech.

 

[Roald]

If you torque the wheels in the right order it should get rid of the vibration unless the wheel/tire are not balanced properly. I tend to prefer aluminum rings, the ones I buy are not the cheapest, but they are very good. They are from Motorsport-Tech.

100% considered that maybe I whiffed on the tightening, so I re-did them this afternoon and haven't noticed a difference. That's when I realized how loose the hub ring was.
I find it odd that it comes and goes, normally in my past experiences with it, when I have an unbalanced wheel it can be noticed at all speed and always.

I was trying to eliminate the rings as an issue and I think remounting them ( I used a reliable/calibrated torque wrench ) would do just that. Although several thousand lbs moving at highway speed tends to show cracks in equipment and logic all the same.
Next step is to get it into the tire shop for a rebalance/check

 

[El_bigote_AJ]

I just switched from Some allum. Rings to konigs new plastic ones on my countergrams and they are beautifully snug fitting on the wheel and the hubs.

If you have 2-4mm of play they sent you the wrong ones or something is else is wrong cause 4mm is insane

 

[Roald]

I just switched from Some allum. Rings to konigs new plastic ones on my countergrams and they are beautifully snug fitting on the wheel and the hubs.

If you have 2-4mm of play they sent you the wrong ones or something is else is wrong cause 4mm is insane

Yep there's enough play that once I put the wheel on the hub I can visibly move it around before I put the bolts in. It's not currently a zero movement setup. Which seems to me to defeat the whole purpose of having rings.
One tire shop wants $17 a wheel for a rebalance and the other is booked for the night.
So tonight I'll pop the wheels off, measure the rings and double check everything again.

 

[yeahforbes]

Having a reliable torque wrench is one thing, and technique is another. There are 2 things to watch out for:

1. Multiple passes around the star pattern. Technically there's a torque spec for each pass, but I wouldn't say that's critical. What I do is use a very light-duty battery powered impact driver for the first couple passes, as it's incapable of achieving the full 89 ft lbs. On the first pass I stop at the first couple of impacts. On the second pass I let it rip until lug rotation pretty much stops. Then on the third pass I switch to the torque wrench which only takes about a 1/4 turn until 89 ft lb, which is actually super convenient for achieving the next requirement...
2. The torque wrench must indicate spec while the bolt is already rotating. If the first click/beep occurs while you're starting to rotate the bolt, it will be under-torqued (because your goal is to measure kinetic friction, not static friction which is higher). In this case, back the bolt out slightly and then pull without letting up until click/beep.

I suspect that adhering 100% to this technique doesn't matter as much when you've got perfect hub centering, but it might be super critical in your case!

 

[Roald]

Having a reliable torque wrench is one thing, and technique is another. There are 2 things to watch out for:

1. Multiple passes around the star pattern. Technically there's a torque spec for each pass, but I wouldn't say that's critical. What I do is use a very light-duty battery powered impact driver for the first couple passes, as it's incapable of achieving the full 89 ft lbs. On the first pass I stop at the first couple of impacts. On the second pass I let it rip until lug rotation pretty much stops. Then on the third pass I switch to the torque wrench which only takes about a 1/4 turn until 89 ft lb, which is actually super convenient for achieving the next requirement...
2. The torque wrench must indicate spec while the bolt is already rotating. If the first click/beep occurs while you're starting to rotate the bolt, it will be under-torqued (because your goal is to measure kinetic friction, not static friction which is higher). In this case, back the bolt out slightly and then pull without letting up until click/beep.

I suspect that adhering 100% to this technique doesn't matter as much when you've got perfect hub centering, but it might be super critical in your case!

I was already doing the star pattern, and inadvertently doing the multiple pass method. It just seems reasonable that you would want to bring all the bolts into spec at about the same time plus the wheel doesn't move as freely if you send one completely home then start the other 4.

I put the wheel up, hand start all the bolts by using the socket but no wrench. Once I know they're started correctly, I pop the socket onto the 1/2" driver adapter and electric drill with the clutch set to the lowest setting and do the star pattern. Then I crank the clutch a quarter turn and give it another go, starting the star pattern in a different spot.
This normally gets me pretty close. Almost there! I take the torque wrench and send it to 90% spec by adjusting the notification setting, and finally starting on a different bolt again send it to spec 100%.

I didn't actually know the detail about setting torque WHILE the bolt is moving, turns out I was "sort of doing it", but now I'll make it a point. I'll put the full technique into play tonight and see what happens.
Even if the ring was off dimensionally torquing the lugs properly should negate the whole thing right? I'm not 100% convinced it's not a balance thing, but the coming/going and not being there at all speeds seems odd.

 

[yeahforbes]

Even if the ring was off dimensionally torquing the lugs properly should negate the whole thing right?

I'm no expert in centering rings (I got my first ever set of wheels that use them only a few months ago) but some very brief research led me to https://www.discounttire.com/learn/hub-rings which says "Hub-centric rings don’t carry any load" so I'd tend to agree that once your lugs are torqued, the ring no longer plays a part. It seems more like the rings are just to make sure the wheel is positioned perfectly when torquing the lugs, and that's why I say the multi-pass technique should basically get the same result. But the combination of snug rings and good technique would certainly leave way less room for error.

I actually have to disagree with something you mentioned earlier:

when I have an unbalanced wheel it can be noticed at all speed and always

I think it's fairly normal for a balancing issue to only be noticed at certain speeds, and very often at 65+ mph as you mentioned, because it's sort of a resonance/harmonic situation. When a vibration is noticed at most/all speeds, that's more indicative of being out-of-round like a bent rim, cupping, etc. as that vibration doesn't rely much on resonance peaks. Maybe try to find a different shop, especially one that can do a Hunter Road Force balance or has time to really dial things in... their inclination to try the tire in various orientations or change weights multiple times may depend on how busy they are and how much they care about you.

 

[Roald]

Haha I like that last bit. "... their inclination to try the tire in various orientations or change weights multiple times may depend on how busy they are and how much they care about you"
I see what you're saying though. I need to work out a few things I think. I'll try remounting tonight. Test that out, if still bad then I'll have the balance checked and in the midst of all of that I'll find rings that actually fit.
I am a bit disappointed the Konig rings are such a poor fit. I went to them because I assumed a big wheel manu. would be reliable.

 

[yeahforbes]

They probably sent you the wrong rings by mistake, regardless of what any packaging/labels say. If 57.1 is stamped into the ring itself, then less likely, but who knows... hit them up for an explanation.

 

[Roald]

Took the RR tire off at lunch today and did some measuring and investigating on the rings/hubs.

The ring is just barely over sized. And initially I thought I was going crazy. Its also definitely NOT 2-4mm of play so I was WAY off there.

Then I realized where the extra slop was. I’m not sure how it’s supposed to fit…but the ring appears to be short or not deep enough? As it sits Behind the bulge in the hub. You can see there’s a much bigger difference in diameter behind and on the bugle of the hub. You can see the measured diameter on the ring/bulge/lip of the hub is 57~mm and behind its 56.25mm. You can also see how mis/un-aligned the bolt hole is compared to the bolt seat on the wheel. Is this significant? I would think that proper tightening process would make up for this and pull the wheel into alignment.

Regardless. I remounted the tire. Careful to follow the right process and still have a vibration at 70~mph.

New rings should be here today finally. But I’m thinking I need to pull the trigger on a re-balance.

 

[El_bigote_AJ]

Those rings are not oversized at all, they are spot on .04 of a variable can be in your tools calibration and more importantly the flex in the plastic.

Yeah that bludge on the rear hubs is always a pain, but when the rings are installed in the wheels fully they shouldn’t actually sit as far back as you show in the test fit, so I would expect they may still be in-line with that bulge of the hubs.

Also the way you’re showing the wheel lug whole and hub misaligned isn’t from ring play as the misalignment would be north/south of the center of the wheel, that pic shows it being easy/west which is just a case of spinning the wheel some time center that.

But yeah test out the new ring before getting the wheels rebalanced.

Do you have another set of wheels you can test also? To make sure it’s the wheels and not something else?

 

[imthanick_a]

Those rings are not oversized at all, they are spot on .04 of a variable can be in your tools calibration and more importantly the flex in the plastic.

Yeah that bludge on the rear hubs is always a pain, but when the rings are installed in the wheels fully they shouldn’t actually sit as far back as you show in the test fit, so I would expect they may still be in-line with that bulge of the hubs.

Also the way you’re showing the wheel lug whole and hub misaligned isn’t from ring play as the misalignment would be north/south of the center of the wheel, that pic shows it being easy/west which is just a case of spinning the wheel some time center that.

But yeah test out the new ring before getting the wheels rebalanced.

Do you have another set of wheels you can test also? To make sure it’s the wheels and not something else?

Also in manufacturing tolerances. The company I work for uses plus/minus .005" tolerance on most features. I would imagine hub ring manufacturers use a similar tolerance band

 

[imthanick_a]

You could try one aftermarket wheel at a time with the other 3 stock to see which one is causing vibration

 

[DELETE]

Make sure you get a proper balance, ask about road force balancing too, the hub centric rings should have no play. You can torque the wheel properly and will eventually still get vibration if the hub rings are wrong. Especially if the weights from the balance are wrong or missing.