Golf 1.8T General Consensus on 09G transmission

[HJ38]

As an aside, during the pandemic I went and bought a '94 NA Miata to finally learn stick on and have something to hoon around in while the world was frozen in place. It cost me ~$4k which is honestly less than what I've sunk into my Mk7 and this piddly little ~100whp matchbox whose only real option is the diff in the rear is more fun to blast around when I feel like it than the Golf. I've taken my Mk7 to track days, I've sent it down the quarter mile more times than I care to count, and despite effectively having triple the wheel horsepower, the Miata by virtue of being a dedicated sports car is more fun when I feel like it. Not to mention that with the Miata being a bit of a shitbox, I'm not constantly worried if it explodes or gets in a scrape. I don't fully regret what I've done with my Golf, as it was a willing and patient partner for me bumbling through developing a sense of mechanical competency while working on it.

But seriously, that APR stage 1 is $500. Price to performance nothing will match what it'll give you. Keep the car livable, enjoy the GTI levels of performance, and if you were serious about spending the kind of money to get to a genuine performance build installed at a shop, I'd say go and buy a cheaper weekend car. Granted I had the space to make a second car work, I completely get that not everyone is as lucky. But even if you can only swing for one car, a stage 1 with a rear sway bar, a decent set of tires, wheels, and a softer dogbone insert is all you need to be ~90% as fun as the Golf I drive today without having to really sacrifice anything when it comes to comfort.

Yup, that’s pretty much around what I’m doing. Making my TSI a GTI for a fraction of the cost, and eventually I’ll buy a beater car to have some fun with. Not sure if me asking this is against the rules/too off topic, but where did you find your Miata?

 

[joedubs]

Yup, that’s pretty much around what I’m doing. Making my TSI a GTI for a fraction of the cost, and eventually I’ll buy a beater car to have some fun with.

Careful with that. The GTI doesn't just have more power. The brakes are better (not just pads and rotors), the suspension is better (not just springs), the engine is better (not just 2L vs 1.8L), the transmission is better, the interior is better... A 240hp Golf is not a GTI.

The multi-car solution is always a great option if you've got the space!

 

[odessa.filez]

My 2 cents. The 1.8 with the 09G has limited upside.

There are threads of folks running into problems with IS20 tunes, from reputable tuners including APR IS20 and Uni IS20.

There is none, NADA , zero options for LSD. Nothing.

Now, if I went IS20 I would try JB4. Or stack JB4 over an is12 (edit from is20) tune as there are some claims that the JB4 can outsmart the torque limiter.

Otherwise I'll buy a Mk8 GTI.

 

[YamR1rider]

A question for you 1.8/09G dudes (especially anyone with the APR 87 tune). Does the tune do anything to reduce throttle hesitation off the line and/or smooth out changes on the auto box?

I've recently bought a high mile 1.8 for my daughter and it seems to run well, although compared to my GTI (with APR Plus ECU and TCU tune) I find it a bit hesitant off the line, and the 09G box in low speed traffic seems a bit choppy to me versus the DSG in my car. Im finding the 09G a bit of weird trans, it seems to shift nicely when getting on the gas a bit but just doesn't seem too happy in slow traffic (although paddle shifting manually is smooth).

It's not that my daughter will be needing or using any extra power, but she learned to drive in my car, and has noticed hers is a little more hesitant when pressing the pedal (something I also noted in the GTI but the tuning cured that). So if there are more benefits to the low end 1.8 tune asides from the power and torque, I will probably go ahead and get it if you all think it's worthwhile.

 

[Scanner]

A question for you 1.8/09G dudes (especially anyone with the APR 87 tune). Does the tune do anything to reduce throttle hesitation off the line and/or smooth out changes on the auto box?

I've recently bought a high mile 1.8 for my daughter and it seems to run well, although compared to my GTI (with APR Plus ECU and TCU tune) I find it a bit hesitant off the line, and the 09G box in low speed traffic seems a bit choppy to me versus the DSG in my car. Im finding the 09G a bit of weird trans, it seems to shift nicely when getting on the gas a bit but just doesn't seem too happy in slow traffic (although paddle shifting manually is smooth).

It's not that my daughter will be needing or using any extra power, but she learned to drive in my car, and has noticed hers is a little more hesitant when pressing the pedal (something I also noted in the GTI but the tuning cured that). So if there are more benefits to the low end 1.8 tune asides from the power and torque, I will probably go ahead and get it if you all think it's worthwhile.

If no need for extra power and the matter is "noticed hers is a little more hesitant when pressing the pedal", you could try a nice and cheaper 5-min install pedal tuner from e.g. BMS https://burgertuning.com/products/bms-pedal-tuner

 

[odessa.filez]

A question for you 1.8/09G dudes (especially anyone with the APR 87 tune). Does the tune do anything to reduce throttle hesitation off the line and/or smooth out changes on the auto box?

I've recently bought a high mile 1.8 for my daughter and it seems to run well, although compared to my GTI (with APR Plus ECU and TCU tune) I find it a bit hesitant off the line, and the 09G box in low speed traffic seems a bit choppy to me versus the DSG in my car. Im finding the 09G a bit of weird trans, it seems to shift nicely when getting on the gas a bit but just doesn't seem too happy in slow traffic (although paddle shifting manually is smooth).

It's not that my daughter will be needing or using any extra power, but she learned to drive in my car, and has noticed hers is a little more hesitant when pressing the pedal (something I also noted in the GTI but the tuning cured that). So if there are more benefits to the low end 1.8 tune asides from the power and torque, I will probably go ahead and get it if you all think it's worthwhile.

Definitely hesitant in D. It's programmed for eco and lugs the engine to get it. Upshifts super early, tries not to downshift and lugs even on hills. It's really noticeable with the AC on and until engine reaches operating temp.

The pedal tuner idea is good but won't change trans behavior. (I doubt a tune will either). It will help reduce throttle lag so pulling away or getting on the gas may feel smoother.

Now that I live in hill country, I run the trans in S until the engine warms up.

 

[YamR1rider]

Thanks guys, good suggestion and info. Yes I noticed the rush to upshift, probably most annoying is 1st to 2nd which at low throttle input is almost an immediate 'bobble' as it changes at like 2mph...would be better if the car just took off in second. I have noticed however with this box it is actually noticeably smoother and responsive in manual mode, and even in D or S at moderate to high throttle settings it shifts nicely... It's the low speed stuff where I notice it as being inferior to the DSG in my GTI. That said prior to my ECU and TCU tune in the GTI I had the same complaint about it being hesitant off the line in D. Like many others however im not sure if the tuning improvement came from the ECU or TCU tune as I had both done at the same time,but according to APR literature that aspect is ECU. Of course with the 1.8, no trans tune is available (shame).

I did the 'more responsive' throttle adaptation in Obdeleven in an attempt for a quick fix. ..not really convinced its done much however!

 

[StorableComa]

Your tuner of choice should be able to modify the throttle input maps on the pedals for D and S on the ECU. Not a TCU tune, but can help smooth things out a bit. Only way to make 1>2 longer is S or manual mode. Even if you give it more throttle in D it wants to dump 1st pretty quick.

 

[HJ38]

I’d like to be a bit more informed about my decision. My best bet if I were to go big turbo would be IS38 or IS20, and would the best option (considering the 09G) be a JB4 on top of my Stage 1 APR 91 Oct tune? That way CA smog is less of a hassle, and I can play with boost by gear to deal with the torque converter issues / limp mode. Otherwise, for you guys tuned by Ian at Reflect, how much was it? Would you recommend it? Is it a flash at home? Can it clear CEL for a potential aftermarket DP? Lots of questions but the same context, except I’ll do the labor myself. Also, could anyone link some good threads about JB4 stacking? I think I’ve read them all already but I could’ve missed some. Thanks

 

[StorableComa]

I’d like to be a bit more informed about my decision. My best bet if I were to go big turbo would be IS38 or IS20, and would the best option (considering the 09G) be a JB4 on top of my Stage 1 APR 91 Oct tune? That way CA smog is less of a hassle, and I can play with boost by gear to deal with the torque converter issues / limp mode. Otherwise, for you guys tuned by Ian at Reflect, how much was it? Would you recommend it? Is it a flash at home? Can it clear CEL for a potential aftermarket DP? Lots of questions but the same context, except I’ll do the labor myself. Also, could anyone link some good threads about JB4 stacking? I think I’ve read them all already but I could’ve missed some. Thanks

Depends on tuner, I plan to eventually make it through all three. I've got MPI and full ethanol going now, probably do the RS3 LPFP and IS20 swap soon. If it'll take the near instant torque of the IS20 on ethanol timing it'll easily handle the later torque of an IS38. If If destroys itself it appears a DQ250 swap is possible and somewhat easy, granted being California there are a few extra hoops to jump through for smog due to CARB.

JB4 stacking I would probably only recommend IS20. There seemes to be issues due to lack of control over all variables that makes the IS38 not the greatest with the 1.8t paired with it. 2.0 sure, but 20 I'd say is the 1.8 sweet spot from looking at logs.

I spoke with Reflect but have not used them so I'll answer the few questions I can. Yes it's flash at home, I believe it's around 900ish if not more due to flashing hardware purchase plus tune. He does do custom tunes, so canned stage tunes might be cheaper.

The CEL stuff you'd have to ask about, a lot of places no longer do it.

I stacked JB4 over my IE stage 1 tune with great results, but due to wanting more control have started tuning myself with Open Source.

For smog unless you go APR stage 1, and only stage 1, you'll have to flash to stock and/or remove the JB4 for smog anyhow. APR stage 1 is the only currently approved CARB tune AFAIK.

Due to the new ECU scanning for CAL ID and Number you'll have to flash to stock and drive until readiness is set for smog any other way. Jb4 will not pass visual, just like the DP wouldn't.

Best bet for stacking is the 1.8 and the 2.0 stacking threads respectively and both of the engines general JB4 threads. All four have great info, and will generally offer help with posted datazap logs.

 

[HJ38]

Depends on tuner, I plan to eventually make it through all three. I've got MPI and full ethanol going now, probably do the RS3 LPFP and IS20 swap soon. If it'll take the near instant torque of the IS20 on ethanol timing it'll easily handle the later torque of an IS38. If If destroys itself it appears a DQ250 swap is possible and somewhat easy, granted being California there are a few extra hoops to jump through for smog due to CARB.

JB4 stacking I would probably only recommend IS20. There seemes to be issues due to lack of control over all variables that makes the IS38 not the greatest with the 1.8t paired with it. 2.0 sure, but 20 I'd say is the 1.8 sweet spot from looking at logs.

I spoke with Reflect but have not used them so I'll answer the few questions I can. Yes it's flash at home, I believe it's around 900ish if not more due to flashing hardware purchase plus tune. He does do custom tunes, so canned stage tunes might be cheaper.

The CEL stuff you'd have to ask about, a lot of places no longer do it.

I stacked JB4 over my IE stage 1 tune with great results, but due to wanting more control have started tuning myself with Open Source.

For smog unless you go APR stage 1, and only stage 1, you'll have to flash to stock and/or remove the JB4 for smog anyhow. APR stage 1 is the only currently approved CARB tune AFAIK.

Due to the new ECU scanning for CAL ID and Number you'll have to flash to stock and drive until readiness is set for smog any other way. Jb4 will not pass visual, just like the DP wouldn't.

Best bet for stacking is the 1.8 and the 2.0 stacking threads respectively and both of the engines general JB4 threads. All four have great info, and will generally offer help with posted datazap logs.

Sounds good.

Depends on tuner, I plan to eventually make it through all three. I've got MPI and full ethanol going now, probably do the RS3 LPFP and IS20 swap soon. If it'll take the near instant torque of the IS20 on ethanol timing it'll easily handle the later torque of an IS38. If If destroys itself it appears a DQ250 swap is possible and somewhat easy, granted being California there are a few extra hoops to jump through for smog due to CARB.

JB4 stacking I would probably only recommend IS20. There seemes to be issues due to lack of control over all variables that makes the IS38 not the greatest with the 1.8t paired with it. 2.0 sure, but 20 I'd say is the 1.8 sweet spot from looking at logs.

I spoke with Reflect but have not used them so I'll answer the few questions I can. Yes it's flash at home, I believe it's around 900ish if not more due to flashing hardware purchase plus tune. He does do custom tunes, so canned stage tunes might be cheaper.

The CEL stuff you'd have to ask about, a lot of places no longer do it.

I stacked JB4 over my IE stage 1 tune with great results, but due to wanting more control have started tuning myself with Open Source.

For smog unless you go APR stage 1, and only stage 1, you'll have to flash to stock and/or remove the JB4 for smog anyhow. APR stage 1 is the only currently approved CARB tune AFAIK.

Due to the new ECU scanning for CAL ID and Number you'll have to flash to stock and drive until readiness is set for smog any other way. Jb4 will not pass visual, just like the DP wouldn't.

Best bet for stacking is the 1.8 and the 2.0 stacking threads respectively and both of the engines general JB4 threads. All four have great info, and will generally offer help with posted datazap logs.

Sounds good. Would you recommend buying a JB4 new so that I can have George’s help with fine tuning, or do you think there’s enough info our there for us 09G guys with IS20? Especially for my trans, I was under the impression that the IS38 would be better because the torque comes on less instantenously. Could you point me to where you’ve seen the JB4 unable to control parts of the tuning for the IS38? Thanks again!

 

[StorableComa]

Sounds good.

Sounds good. Would you recommend buying a JB4 new so that I can have George’s help with fine tuning, or do you think there’s enough info our there for us 09G guys with IS20? Especially for my trans, I was under the impression that the IS38 would be better because the torque comes on less instantenously. Could you point me to where you’ve seen the JB4 unable to control parts of the tuning for the IS38? Thanks again!

"The unit can be used with our JB4 Bluetooth Connect kit providing for full in-car engine parameter display, map switching, and adjustment Support is also provided for the IS20 turbo upgrade providing for outputs past the 280hp level."
https://burgertuning.com/products/group-3-jb1-jb4-vw-ea888

I believe the IS38 is only advertised to be used with the 2.0T and JB4. JB4 being a piggyback really can only handle going up one turbo I assume. Your wastegate and other things will be off as you have no control over them and they're set for IS12. That will only get worse if you move to the IS38 which is now 2 sizes bigger than the 1.8T stock turbo. 2.0 engines come with IS20 and 38s stock and are calibrated more inline for that.

This is where you'll start to see the limits of JB4 even with stacking on a stage 1 tune vs a correct ECU flash for your turbo and setup. You start to hit walls with timing and other things that the piggyback just can't adjust.

Personally I bought a used one and was able to get it piggybacked on my stage 1 tune just fine with the forums help. It seems daunting at first but you'll start to learn how to read the logs and what the different JB4 variables do and it becomes much easier to do yourself. Though YMMV, honestly that is a question you're going to have to ask yourself and think about. Nothing really special for the 09G the JB4 can control. The only thing may be the shift delay, but when I was stacking I found little to no benefit when I played with that, it mainly just resulted in an EPC.

 

[HJ38]

Bolded the most important part. I'm with Zumble here 100%, and I didn't even go anywhere near as far as he did on modifying my 1.8. The cost of labor for the benefits gained won't be worth it in my opinion. For what it's worth, I actually learned how to work on cars with my Golf, and even with literal thousands saved in labor over the years I'm still not entirely certain if it was all worth it. I've kept my car intentionally more as a daily, but every now and then I sit there and traffic and ask why I went down this rabbit hole for what is ultimately at the end of the day an appliance I want to comfortably get from point A to B in.

Thinking back on it, I'd say the last time I was truly confident and happy with the car was back on Is20 with stock fueling with a downpipe. You'll pass readiness with an Is20 and the stock downpipe on the OEM software, and I don't think there's a smog tech in California that can eyeball the difference between the 18 and 20's housings. Still if I had to pay for the installs, knowing what I do know I'd have personally stuck with stage 1, which is entirely trouble free and in the case of APR already CARB certified so you'll never have to worry about emissions.

I'm more open to the idea of doing my own install of a possible IS20 or IS38. @Sparky589, could you specify what tune/setup worked with the IS38 and didn't throw a code? If I can buy the complete IS38 kit from FCP Euro for something like $1100, install an aftermarket downpipe for 500 or so, depending on the tune situation I feel like I could still have a reliable car that feels a lot more sporty. As long as I don't get into too much open source tuning and leave fueling stock, I think this would be the best balance between reliability, power, cost, and peace of mind. The only thing I need to figure out is what tune will not cause my 09g tranny to act up. I'd rather sacrifice a bit of the is38's potential and have a simpler setup.

 

[sherbet]

I’m on an IS20, APR intake and turbo inlet, Uni Stage 2, stock DP- 09G. but have a Uni catted dp I am planning to throw on. Tuned for CA 91 and always run a ~3 gallon E blend. I do have the EPC issue but it’s not WOT 3-4, it’s load and IAT based. I daily this car and have a 500+ WHP b5 s4 that is more of my fun jam, but the Golf is reliable as hell and I run the car insanely hard. 75 miles a day and probably do at least 3 or 4 110-120 pulls when I drive home late at night. Also rip it around 1st and 2nd gear like it’s going out of style. If you are loaded up too much between shifts, and it takes a bit too long to get into the next gear, I think something happens where the Ecu and TCU freak out a bit and throw EPC. Anytime I’m not shifting at redline(or 6,000+), i pedal on and off the throttle like a manual. Seems dumb but it’s very responsive to it and it never throws Epc by doing this. Only when I go WOT and it shifts at high load below 6k or so. My transmission has actually adapted and shifts faster than ever and I’ve put 100k miles on the car, driving this way daily. I did one trans service at 80k miles and will probably do them every 30-40k from now on but people are so timid about pushing these cars, I’ve never had a concern about pushing the car as I come from the audi b5 world. If I wanted a performance car I would have opted for GTI or R, I work with 7 figure cars for a living and get to drive them frequently. I do feel it gives me some room to say that with all of this experience driving just about every single super car and hyper car you can think of, there’s no point in trying to make a car like the golf into something that it was not designed for just enhance what it is and enjoy it for what it is. If you want big power get a GTI or R or even better, RS3.

 

[YamR1rider]

Bit of a follow up on my earlier posts about the choppy 09g....well I got around to servicing the trans yesterday and found out that some cretin had drastically overfilled it (by 2 liters!). To add insult to injury, they had also decided to stick down the meaty gasket with RTV, which made it a pain in the ass to remove from the oil pan.

Anyhoo, filter and trans fluid service done (with the level correct, done at temperature with obdevelen) - and the car is now shifting really, really nicely! I will probably do another drain/fill in a couple of weeks just to blend a bit more of the old stuff out.

I hope that overfill hasn't contributed to any lasting damage (who knows how long it was like that), but for now life is good (trans-wise anyway....am on to the next project of dealing with no heat which will be followed by an oil cooler replacement (slight leak). And while I'm at that last one, might as well DIY carbon clean the intake valves as I'll have that manifold off anyway.