Friction Evolution 2 piece rotors

[bobivy1234]

This is interesting because it's the opposite for me. I destroy both sides of my outboard dust seals, and my internal ones stay fine. I have a Brembo 4 piston setup with Pagid RSL29 pads, 340mm ATE blanks, Girodisc brake pad heat shields, no VAG backing plate/dust shields, and RS3 ducts. Seem like the RS3 ducts are keeping the inside cooler since those piston dust boots don't get ruined, just the outside ones do.

I also boiled RBF600 once this year. My calipers, after a cool-down lap, were around 925. This was pre brake pad heat shields though. At my last event in October, I never saw the caliper over 575 after a cool-down lap, so I think they are doing a good job mitigating heat.

By pad heat shields looks like you're referencing titanium shims. If that's the case, wouldn't that trap the same heat that is usually absorbed by the pistons/fluid/caliper to direct it into the rotors/pads right? I can see where that would save the pistons/seals/calipers/fluid from high heat but would drive up rotor/pad temps that could also push that to fade.

I had Ti shims on my PP brakes and always got different opinions on effectiveness since the heat has to go somewhere and the real fix is just better cooling like real brake ducts (I'm using the RS3 deflectors also). Also don't the Pagids have a thermal barrier build in? Could be incorrect there, I've got ST43s and trying to determine the same thing if shims would make a difference or not.

EDIT: Off Pagid's site, they claim 60deg C less heat going to caliper, guess its all relative and if you saw results then those speak for themselves https://www.pagidracing.com/en/information/technical-information.html

Maybe the overall takeaway is that the race pads/rotors just can handle higher heat more effectively than the calipers/pistons/fluid and that is good enough for what folks are trying to do with the Brembos on a racetrack. If fluid boils at 600f but a pad is effective up to 1200f then that makes sense. Looking back, I was running DS2500s with shims and probably drove those to fade as they are less effective at heat compared to real race pads.

 

[spaparizos]

This is interesting because it's the opposite for me. I destroy both sides of my outboard dust seals, and my internal ones stay fine. I have a Brembo 4 piston setup with Pagid RSL29 pads, 340mm ATE blanks, Girodisc brake pad heat shields, no VAG backing plate/dust shields, and RS3 ducts. Seem like the RS3 ducts are keeping the inside cooler since those piston dust boots don't get ruined, just the outside ones do.

I meant the inside of the wheels wells, like the wheel surface. Not the calipers. I actually get the inside caliper to be a lot cooler than the outside. I find that very strange. On the stock calipers, removing the GTI logo helped a lot.

What are the heat shields that helped you? Are they the titanium ones ?

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

Are you guys talking about Titanium shims?

I used to run them on my RX8 and 135i.

I never had heat / fade issues on my RX8. I attribute that to generously sized factory rotors.

On the 135i I cooked some DS2500 with the shims in place.

 

[bobivy1234]

Are you guys talking about Titanium shims?

I used to run them on my RX8 and 135i.

I never had heat / fade issues on my RX8. I attribute that to generously sized factory rotors.

On the 135i I cooked some DS2500 with the shims in place.

To both, yes talking about Ti shims. Neuspeed sells a kit here for the Macan Brembos https://neuspeed.com/products/neuspeed-titanium-brake-pad-shim-kit-991002 and Girodisc sells shims too assuming this is the F50 Brembo setup? Sean would have to answer that one.

 

[reverend_sean]

What are the heat shields that helped you? Are they the titanium ones ?

Yes. I went with Girodisc.

assuming this is the F50 Brembo setup?

My calipers are from a Renault Megane III RS. They are definitely not as robust as the F50s. The biggest differences are they are a monobloc caliper and they use 4 40mm pistons, not 40/44. Not the same size pad either. These take this shape https://www.pagidracing.com/en/prod...ing-brake-pads/shape-detail/s/shape-2487.html. I can't find an off the shelf Brembo kit that looks identical to them. It's like they are some hybrid of the F40/Monobloc/E-family. I assume Renault licensed the manufacturing from Brembo and made some slight alterations.

I never considered the radiant heat would still be an issue. I only thought about heat transfer via parts that contact each other. This is interesting. Brake cooling ducts and a fixed backplate to feed the air to the center of the rotor is the only solution I guess. Just not sure it's the right one for my dual-duty/daily driver car.

 

[bobivy1234]

My calipers are from a Renault Megane III RS. They are definitely not as robust as the F50s. The biggest differences are they are a monobloc caliper and they use 4 40mm pistons, not 40/44. Not the same size pad either. These take this shape https://www.pagidracing.com/en/prod...ing-brake-pads/shape-detail/s/shape-2487.html. I can't find an off the shelf Brembo kit that looks identical to them. It's like they are some hybrid of the F40/Monobloc/E-family. I assume Renault licensed the manufacturing from Brembo and made some slight alterations.

I never considered the radiant heat would still be an issue. I only thought about heat transfer via parts that contact each other. This is interesting. Brake cooling ducts and a fixed backplate to feed the air to the center of the rotor is the only solution I guess. Just not sure it's the right one for my dual-duty/daily driver car.

Mine's dual duty as well. Best scenario would be separate rotors/pads for track and street with brake ducting that you can block off for normal driving with the tubing removed. I think for these Mk7 cars without true BBKs/2-piece veined rotors like the Macan Brembos or yours, the shims do more good than harm as real race pads and blank rotors can handle a lot of heat but calipers/pistons and fluid to an extent that aren't race bred would be the first to fail. More cooling for the whole system is better but hard to find on the Mk7.

Also I've made peace with the fact that veined/2-piece expensive rotors aren't going to magically cool everything down compared to the larger benefit of more airflow. Trying to learn from the spec Miata and E46 drivers that use cheap blank rotors, really solid endurance race pads, and ducting. Both of those spec series also use stock single piston floating calipers without issue so the GTI PP brake setup is still a solid kit overall.

I am about to run an experiment with the Verus brake duct kit they sell for the BRZ/FRS/86 to see if I can retrofit their backing plate onto a GTI. I already emailed Verus and they have no intention of doing any more Mk7 stuff (custom or large order) since market-wide there is little demand for hardened track parts which I can understand. I'm hoping I can just use their backing plate with modified mounting holes and then install ducts where my fog lights are as well as their pancake adapter to clear the wheel and have a solid setup. I bought a cheap BRZ dust shield just to see if the holes line up on the spindle and I'll go from there.

I'll know if this all is sound or all BS at my next track event early next year. If I don't have firm consistent braking with Raybestos ST-43s and shims through my DE sessions then I'm done with the Macans and going ST40 BBK.

 

[reverend_sean]

I am about to run an experiment with the Verus brake duct kit

This is awesome. I look forward to hearing how it goes. There are a number of people that would likely follow your lead if that kit worked out.