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DSC Sport Active Suspension Controller

jmblur

Autocross Champion
Location
Massachusetts
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
A product at this price tag demands more scrutiny than a $300 chassis brace or $200 "aero" piece everybody knows is 99% for cosmetics. Especially given this isn't an established tech on this platform and this type of active damper, it is definitely something worthy of scrutiny. If this was $500, it would be something people could reasonably take a flyer on at the cost.

As an engineer (yep, dropping the e card), i'd expect any development effort with a suspension system to include a data acquisition effort that would, in this case, include comparisons of the signal sent to the shocks at each corner through controlled testing (slalom at X mph, sweeper at Y mph entry speed, one wheel bump, one wheel dip, etc.) and accompanying linear potentiometer and accelerometer data (at a minimum) to prove the shocks are doing what's intended.

Lap times, frankly, are way too easy to fake if not done independently or at the very pointy end (nurburgring lap compared to best published OE time, 1/4 mile records, etc.). A tire swap to brand new rubber (even on the same tire), a wee bit later on the braking, etc. Similarly, owner reviews tend to be extremely clouded by the placebo effect and the pocketbook effect (I spent 1500 bucks on this, it must be good!).

I wouldn't expect anyone would buy an ecu tune without at least a dyno chart, or a performance shock upgrade without a shock dyno damping rate chart (note I said performance - I'm not talking about the "looks only" coilovers).

As far as I can tell, this work probably was done on some other platforms, like Porsche. But I see no evidence that this wasn't just a software effort to port over that original logic to our platform, with no actual testing to dial in the performance for the platform beyond the basic logic.

I would LOVE to be proven incorrect here, because I do think this type of product has a lot of promise and VW's out-of-box tuning isn't great. But for the price this is commanding, I want data for our platform, not just marketing claims and "look, it worked on the 911!"

And no offense @Vision7 , that includes not trusting reviews by a brand new member who has only posted in this thread.
 

Cuzoe

Autocross Champion
Location
Los Angeles
Don't we all know this hasn't been tested on this platform? And since it's just a replacement of the existing DCC module that means it's just software, with their tune or your custom one. That's why some of us are waiting on data while others are willing to pay $1,300 and report. They also said they sent units out to several shops to get feedback. Our trust in those shops will vary but that's more data that should be coming.

The issue wasn't wanting more data, the issue was demanding the data now and acting like that timeline is binding, as if someone is forcing us to buy their product.
 

DSC Sport

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Jessup, MD
Car(s)
7.5 Golf R
Don't we all know this hasn't been tested on this platform? And since it's just a replacement of the existing DCC module that means it's just software, with their tune or your custom one. That's why some of us are waiting on data while others are willing to pay $1,300 and report. They also said they sent units out to several shops to get feedback. Our trust in those shops will vary but that's more data that should be coming.

The issue wasn't wanting more data, the issue was demanding the data now and acting like that timeline is binding, as if someone is forcing us to buy their product.
Thank you. This is spot on. We have done our own testing on all of the products everything works as it should and more specifically as advertised.

I can tell you all day it will improve handling and everyday driving. But you want to hear more. So that's why shops and drivers who know our company's reputation are willing to buy into the new product and then do their own testing. All of them will be reporting back. And without a doubt I will share those finding will the community as will those companies. Nothing is meant to be secretive.

Scrutiny is accepted with any new product. We are happy to hear it. Wether you are going to buy one or not. My answers to your questions may convince another person to try it out on their own car.
 

DSC Sport

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Jessup, MD
Car(s)
7.5 Golf R
A product at this price tag demands more scrutiny than a $300 chassis brace or $200 "aero" piece everybody knows is 99% for cosmetics. Especially given this isn't an established tech on this platform and this type of active damper, it is definitely something worthy of scrutiny. If this was $500, it would be something people could reasonably take a flyer on at the cost.

As an engineer (yep, dropping the e card), i'd expect any development effort with a suspension system to include a data acquisition effort that would, in this case, include comparisons of the signal sent to the shocks at each corner through controlled testing (slalom at X mph, sweeper at Y mph entry speed, one wheel bump, one wheel dip, etc.) and accompanying linear potentiometer and accelerometer data (at a minimum) to prove the shocks are doing what's intended.

Lap times, frankly, are way too easy to fake if not done independently or at the very pointy end (nurburgring lap compared to best published OE time, 1/4 mile records, etc.). A tire swap to brand new rubber (even on the same tire), a wee bit later on the braking, etc. Similarly, owner reviews tend to be extremely clouded by the placebo effect and the pocketbook effect (I spent 1500 bucks on this, it must be good!).

I wouldn't expect anyone would buy an ecu tune without at least a dyno chart, or a performance shock upgrade without a shock dyno damping rate chart (note I said performance - I'm not talking about the "looks only" coilovers).

As far as I can tell, this work probably was done on some other platforms, like Porsche. But I see no evidence that this wasn't just a software effort to port over that original logic to our platform, with no actual testing to dial in the performance for the platform beyond the basic logic.

I would LOVE to be proven incorrect here, because I do think this type of product has a lot of promise and VW's out-of-box tuning isn't great. But for the price this is commanding, I want data for our platform, not just marketing claims and "look, it worked on the 911!"

And no offense @Vision7 , that includes not trusting reviews by a brand new member who has only posted in this thread.

The data will not be done independently, which is why it isn't out there yet. I understand your aren't convinced on it. At least not yet, or really you may never be sold on it. But regardless I have not received the data from these companies. So no matter how many times it is reiterated, I can't share the results until the people with the products finish their testing.

We released the product because we know people will take our reputation and experience, as well as feedback from other platforms, as enough to make the purchase. And for the people on the fence still. Thats where we hope the testing will get them to move forward with it.
 

Vision7

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Ontario, Canada
And no offense @Vision7 , that includes not trusting reviews by a brand new member who has only posted in this thread.
No offense taken and I have no expectation of your trust or anyone else's; brand new member or not. I started the DSC Sport Controller thread on VWVortex and a long-standing member of this forum brought this one to my attention. I've been in the VW Community for over 20 years and have been assisting with the development and testing of aftermarket products for over a decade. Regardless of this, I still have no expectations for people to trust me. As I wrote earlier, at the end of the day, everyone is free to spend their time, energy, and money on whatever products they want; regardless of whether or not they offer the advertised results.

After testing this product, I will share my impressions and feedback. Everyone can take whatever they want from it or disregard it entirely. The beauty of the aftermarket means there's a wide range of options; allowing people to carve their own path of modifications and upgrades; making their car their own. I hope you find the answers you're looking for. If all of this is still unsatisfactory, I'm sure DSC Sport will happily sell you a Sport Controller so you can conduct your own "rigorous" testing for your own peace of mind.
 

nono0044

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Toronto
The data will not be done independently, which is why it isn't out there yet. I understand your aren't convinced on it. At least not yet, or really you may never be sold on it. But regardless I have not received the data from these companies. So no matter how many times it is reiterated, I can't share the results until the people with the products finish their testing.

We released the product because we know people will take our reputation and experience, as well as feedback from other platforms, as enough to make the purchase. And for the people on the fence still. Thats where we hope the testing will get them to move forward with it.

"So no matter how many times it is reiterated, I can't share the results until the people with the products finish their testing":
So there's literally ZERO data or results you can share from any of your in-house development/testing? Like literally zero charts or graphs to reflect any of the claims for your product?

So when you guys "launched" this months ago, the plan was to have the early adopters just give their subjective feedback as "results"? Is that what's going on here again? The people you've sent out units to are going to drive around with them, with no other data logging devices, and come back and say "yeah, the controller works great" and that's the level of "results" and "proof" we're going to get?

"We released the product because we know people will take our reputation and experience, as well as feedback from other platforms, as enough to make the purchase.":
But that's not THIS platform, you can't ride your reputation alone when you're asking people to shell out almost $1500. Like @jmblur said, reputation is one thing when it's a piece of plastic, or a metal rod, but this is interfacing with critical electronic components of the car. And if we're going to discuss reputation, personally, your reputation so far on THIS platform is providing people who paid $$$ and got a half baked product and tucking tail when people brought that up.

So you're expecting people to make a leap of faith because the "data" is "coming". okay. And I think that's sort of rubbing people the wrong way

Inb4: I'm not the target market and I'm part of the poors because I'm not willing to spend my money to turn my car into a Porsche
 
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scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
I really wanna know who's buying this to use with stock shocks on track in a competitive racing body that would probably force them into a serious track-dedicated class for running aftermarket active suspension.
 

Cuzoe

Autocross Champion
Location
Los Angeles
The product didn't show up as available to purchase until this month, not months ago, but can be ordered now. Buy it if you want (based on their previous work, or your willingness to give it a shot) or don't, and wait for data. If the data that makes you comfortable buying it doesn't materialize, don't buy it at $13 or $1,300. Unless things have changed, H&R doesn't publish their spring rates. That's not to compare DSC and H&R with regard to their history/trust/experience on this other platforms, but people recommend H&R springs all the time.

And I do realize H&R has been around more than a decade longer than I've been alive, but at some point people might be able to say the same thing about DSC. Or maybe their product won't work with our suspension and they'll exit this market in a fire ball of shame, lol. Who knows? 🤷‍♂️
 

jmblur

Autocross Champion
Location
Massachusetts
Car(s)
2017 Golf R
I really wanna know who's buying this to use with stock shocks on track in a competitive racing body that would probably force them into a serious track-dedicated class for running aftermarket active suspension.
I'm the target market, to be honest. I run non-SCCA autocross, and use my car as a DD (including hauling my 3 year old around). I'm always looking for ways to improve performance for autocross and HPDE that don't ruin my car as a DD. This also pushes me into higher cost suspension options like CSS knuckles instead of camber plates, and looking at higher end coilovers (ohlins, b16 dcc, redshift, etc.) To try and find the right balance.

This product is extremely interesting to me, but the line about " So no matter how many times it is reiterated, I can't share the results until the people with the products finish their testing " is a complete and total dodge. I didn't ask for subjective reviews from independent testers (and if this is being sent to shops that also sell the item for review, that is in NO WAY independent). I asked for engineering data to back up the marketing assertions.

This is data that, if even minimal tuning for our platform was actually done in more than just a simulation, should be readily available from the development team.

Show me the damping response difference. Show me the body roll angle. Show me dive and squat performance comparisons.

This is the same reason I'm not rolling around with an MSS spring kit - lots of marketing claims, some decent design, some pretty poor customer service, and they won't do so much as respond to an email asking about spring rates. I'm the target market of that product too, and because they wouldn't share any data that would be easy to obtain with just a spring dyno, I didn't buy them.

Bilstein was quite happy to share information on spring rates with me fwiw even though they don't publish it, and ohlins publishes lots of info and is even more helpful when contacted directly.

None of what I'm asking for is proprietary information or anything a competitor wouldn't be able to figure out with simple tools they'd almost certainly already own, so the only reason to withhold this information is because it doesn't exist, or because it doesn't back up the marketing.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this because the concept is clearly sound, but I don't think the hard work has been done to actually tune this for our cars instead of applying a one size fits all approach, and for the premium cost of this upgrade I'm not buying one size fits all.

The product didn't show up as available to purchase until this month, not months ago, but can be ordered now.
I had contact with DSC back in June/July and it was available for sale then (with a disclaimer about the firmware issue mentioned many times in this thread). This isn't just available now, it was soft launched in the summer.
 

scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
That's like buying a standalone ECU for the base map. You're paying for flexibility, not the one-size-fits-all tune (that they appear to update freely).

I can't fathom not believing that it doesn't control damping, it's just 4 channels of voltage and that's easily logged and correlated with force on each corner. Anyone can download the software and load up the calibration they provide. I'm sure the marketing is a bit fluffed up, but let's be reasonable, you can't guarantee certain metrics will improve by some number, we'd make fun of them if they tried. Each car will have a different weight distribution, ride height, random suspension mods, half-blown out shocks/bushings, etc.
I don't want to be too much of an apologist, I still have a lot of unanswered questions, but the basic functionality has some surprising skepticism here. If you know your car pretty well and drive post-install, the difference is night and day in terms of comfort and stiffness.
 

Cuzoe

Autocross Champion
Location
Los Angeles
snip...

I had contact with DSC back in June/July and it was available for sale then (with a disclaimer about the firmware issue mentioned many times in this thread). This isn't just available now, it was soft launched in the summer.
If a product is only available by directly contacting the manufacturer and they give you a disclaimer I wouldn't call that a launch. I appreciate that there were initial problems, it's not in dispute by them or anyone at this point. I just don't get what people are mad about in this thread. If you get the data you want (from who you want it from) buy the thing, if you don't get the data don't buy it. As @scrllock said, the actual damper control is quite simple, just voltage which you can log right now with VCDS. And I assume it can be logged with DSC's software. Maybe someone will do a comparison for those that need it in order to justify their purchase, or maybe not, because we're not owed anything.
 
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DSC Sport

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Jessup, MD
Car(s)
7.5 Golf R
So for those asking about Shock Dynos and how we determine the effective range for our controllers. We just finished up some testing comparing the factory setup vs the Bilstein B16 Damptronics for a MK7 Golf R (Part Number 49-255874). We know alot of people switch over to the Bilsteins. So in an effort to create a DSC Tuning File specific to this setup we wanted to get them on the shock dyno to see its capabilities. We ended up finding some pretty interesting results to say the least. The Bilstein Damptronics ended up having zero compression adjustment, only rebound. But this is the data we use to find the effective range of the shocks to then create our tuning for all of our controllers (finding amperage range, compression, and rebound).

VW_Bilstein_rear_vs_stock.png
Bilstein_vs_Stock-3.png
Bilstein_vs_Stock-2.png
 

Cuzoe

Autocross Champion
Location
Los Angeles
At a very basic level, for a layman... how would having rebound adjustment only translate to the way the car rides in the various modes?

I also wonder if the same is true for B4 Damptronics :unsure:. Which is to say that for someone like me who values comfort significantly more than the other modes, would I have been better off going with OEM dampers?
 

DSC Sport

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Jessup, MD
Car(s)
7.5 Golf R
At a very basic level, for a layman... how would having rebound adjustment only translate to the way the car rides in the various modes?

I also wonder if the same is true for B4 Damptronics :unsure:. Which is to say that for someone like me who values comfort significantly more than the other modes, would I have been better off going with OEM dampers?
When looking at compression, A firm setting will provide a tighter feel to the vehicle in corners, whether on pavement, highways, canyon roads, and dirt roads with predictable terrain. A softer setting is optimal for the commute, long road trips, where 'plushness' and ride comfort is paramount for a lot of miles. Basically Bilstein just went with a softer compression that is less capable on a track but is attempting to compensate for this by just adding a stiffer spring.

However, when looking at rebound, it is what controls the speed at which your suspension re-extends after compressing, for example after absorbing a hit like a pothole. Not enough rebound will make your suspension pogo around and ricochet wildly off big hits. Too much rebound will cause your suspension to pack down, resulting in a harsh ride

But based on what we have seen, the oem DCC shocks are very capable and do allow for more control and adjustment than the bilsteins.
 
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Cuzoe

Autocross Champion
Location
Los Angeles
I think I'm following... so what would be the benefit of using a static compression and compensating via a stiffer spring, as opposed to (what I assume is the OEM approach) using variable compression with a softer spring?
 
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