dedicated track pads

[SD-GTI]

I've spent the last two hours searching through old threads but can't find a solid answer on this.. I've been running Ferodo ds2500 pads front/rear on my stock PP brakes, but I'm starting to have issues where I'm occasionally I'll have to stop sessions early (~15 minutes of driving) as they are smoking. I haven't noticed much fade at all, but the smoke and smell isn't confidence inspiring at all, so I'm going to make the jump to the Macan caliper upgrade (can't afford a true BBK just yet).

I'm trying to decide what pads to use: a dedicated pad I can quickly swap in for track days and then a not-too-expensive pad for daily driving. Any suggestions? I'm planning to continue with the basic Zimmerman rotors, if it matters.

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

I’ve always like Porterfield R4.

You can use R4 up front and R4S at the rear. When done with track day swap in R4S up front and you’re good for Daily and Autox duty. The R4 and R4S compound are interchangeable.

 

[scrllock]

imo titanium shims on PP calipers help more than moving to macan calipers for track use, if budget is a concern. keep in mind people get pad taper with the non-staggered piston config. (larger) 2-piece rotors and brake ducts will help with temps more than calipers themselves.

personally I'd stick to whatever you can easily get in both front/rear. usually that's g-loc/carbotech, isweep, porterfield. but DS2500 is available on FCP.
so why not ferodo ds1.11? it's not that pricey if you buy it from demon-tweeks in the UK.

 

[DerHase]

IMO Macan calipers are junk. The pads are super thin (pad thickness plays a BIG role in how much heat gets put into your fluid) and they offer no real advantage over OEM PP brakes. Normally there would be brake feel but they require all kinds of dumb shit just to work correctly as evidenced by the 70 page thread or whatever on them.

People put shitty pads not rated for the temps needed on PP brakes and complain that they don't work well. Then when they upgrade to Macans they splurge and get something decent. Same deal with braided stainless lines... the pedal feels the exact same if you just bleed the brakes. But people don't do that until they're changing the lines. Or the calipers.

I get 10+ track days out of Ferodo 3.12 front and 1.11 rear pads, with temperatures of the rotors being confirmed up to 1500F. Stock brake hoses. Zero problems with fade or the pedal getting softer (due to fluid degrading) until the pads get thin (<12mm or so total thickness). PP pads are 19mm to start. Macans 15.5mm IIRC.

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/brakes/ppbrakeprep

The pads are expensive, but they will last more than 2x longer than most other stuff out there if you're actually driving the car hard. I swap back to DS2500s for the street/autocross.


I just got some 2pc Girodiscs to see if that is enough to get track temps down to more acceptable levels... but the pads just plain do not fade. If anything they're on the grabby side so I would not generally recommend without 200TW tires.

I did some looking into brake adaptations and there are some things that helped a lot. Basically every bit of info on adaptations on this forum is wrong by the way. Brake boost and hydraulic brake booster do nothing. Brake booster is for an aux module for hybrid/EVs and HBB while I'm not 100% sure of what it's for, I know it's not coded

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/brakes/brake-adaptations

 

[SD-GTI]

IMO Macan calipers are junk. The pads are super thin (pad thickness plays a BIG role in how much heat gets put into your fluid) and they offer no real advantage over OEM PP brakes. Normally there would be brake feel but they require all kinds of dumb shit just to work correctly as evidenced by the 70 page thread or whatever on them.

People put shitty pads not rated for the temps needed on PP brakes and complain that they don't work well. Then when they upgrade to Macans they splurge and get something decent. Same deal with braided stainless lines... the pedal feels the exact same if you just bleed the brakes. But people don't do that until they're changing the lines. Or the calipers.

I get 10+ track days out of Ferodo 3.12 front and 1.11 rear pads, with temperatures of the rotors being confirmed up to 1500F. Stock brake hoses. Zero problems with fade or the pedal getting softer (due to fluid degrading) until the pads get thin (<12mm or so total thickness). PP pads are 19mm to start. Macans 15.5mm IIRC.

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/brakes/ppbrakeprep

The pads are expensive, but they will last more than 2x longer than most other stuff out there if you're actually driving the car hard. I swap back to DS2500s for the street/autocross.


I just got some 2pc Girodiscs to see if that is enough to get track temps down to more acceptable levels... but the pads just plain do not fade. If anything they're on the grabby side so I would not generally recommend without 200TW tires.

I did some looking into brake adaptations and there are some things that helped a lot. Basically every bit of info on adaptations on this forum is wrong by the way. Brake boost and hydraulic brake booster do nothing. Brake booster is for an aux module for hybrid/EVs and HBB while I'm not 100% sure of what it's for, I know it's not coded

https://www.datadrivenmqb.com/brakes/brake-adaptations

Thanks everyone for your input. I should have mentioned I'm also running 100TW Nittos NT-01's. DerHase what you write above makes sense to me.. As I read more about all these different options I have begun to question where the Macan upgrade is really going to be that much of an upgrade at all. I wanted to avoid the full BBK but I suppose to can justify it, I would just prefer to go the less expensive route if it gets me to within 9/10ths of where I need to be, which is the ability to go hard (safely) for full 20 minute sessions (usually at Buttonwillow or Chuckwalla here in SoCal which are honestly not that hard on brakes). I like the idea of quick pad swaps so that I can easily move back and forth between track and DD pads, but if there's a pad that is suitable for both that doesn't require swaps, then I don't mind as much sticking with the PP brakes.

So you've got me thinking.. I do need new rotors and street pads as well, as my system is about worn out regardless. Maybe I go with the Ferodo dedicated track pads and then keep 2500's for the street and try 2-piece rotors, hoping that everything stays cooler and if that works, the only real downside is the extra time and hassle of having to swap pads which is kinda time consuming with the PP brakes. Saves a ton of money, though.

DerHas or anyone else, curious if you have ever driven your car or another GTI with a BBK? Just wondering what the difference in stopping power is - will the above get me to within 9/10ths of a BBK, would it be a night and day difference or not really that noticeable?

 

[scrllock]

but if there's a pad that is suitable for both that doesn't require swaps, then I don't mind as much sticking with the PP brakes.

I would consider street-driving G-loc R10 full time if I lived in SoCal. They will be noisy and your wheels will be covered in dust, but they function at ambient temps and offer more friction than DS2500.

DerHas or anyone else, curious if you have ever driven your car or another GTI with a BBK? Just wondering what the difference in stopping power is - will the above get me to within 9/10ths of a BBK, would it be a night and day difference or not really that noticeable?

BBKs do 3 things: look cool, facilitate pad swaps, and add heat capacity through larger rotors. Stopping power is determined by your pads and tires.
His point about the macans being a downgrade is true, the PP pad shape is several mm thicker per side (19mm) than most of the 4-pot brembo pads. The only calipers with thicker pads off the shelf are the wilwoods (20mm) or the AP CP9668 (25mm). Pad area does help with stopping power, but pad volume is akin to heat capacity.

 

[DerHase]

Plain and simple there will not be any pad out there that is good for both street and track.

For reference at VIR I was fading the DS2500s in 2 laps on all seasons in 40F weather. The DS3.12s I JUST finally had an issue with when I let them get way low (burning up last year's pads at a Feb HPDE). If you haven't had your pedal go soft that early into a session then I really don't think you need a wild brake setup.

You're probably under-estimating the abilities of the stock calipers with REALLY good pads. I could continue using Zimmerman blanks like I have been for the past 2 years if I hadn't gotten a good deal on very lightly used 2pc rotors. I like experimenting with stuff, and frankly I'm really curious since I DO have the temp indicating paint... if the Girodiscs will truly make a noticeable difference. I should know in May over Memorial Day weekend.

The other reason is because I have an IS38 waiting to go on later this year Hoping to see if I can buy some headroom with the brakes before adding another 10mph on VIR's 4000ft back straight. (currently doing ~135mph down to 45mph, will likely be 145 or so vMax after).

You CAN daily on the 3.12/1.11 combo and they're not "that bad" on the rotors. I am generally lazy and will drive around for a week before and after an event. I just swap the pads, not rotors - that's the main thing I want to avoid (esp in the rear) because it SUCKS on these cars. I swap out the pads because they're EXPENSIVE and I'd rather not burn through them. Or the rotors.

I'm not a fan of 95% of the big brake kits out there. Most are Chineseum garbage. When I do decide to run a BBK it'll be AP Racing or the 529 Innovations Wilwoods. Both are solid options IMO with a slight nod to the Wilwoods for consumable costs (uses off the shelf Girodiscs which are $650-700 for replacement ring PAIRS) vs AP $600 per SIDE rotor rings. Both calipers are used heavily in the C5 Corvette world.

I haven't driven a MK7 on track with a proper BBK yet - have driven several other cars with APs etc. Main benefit is the brake pedal just doesn't change ever. I've also done a 2hr Champcar stint in a poorly prepped Focus SVT. Polar opposite of "great" but I didn't die so there's that.

It honestly sounds like Pagid might be a decent option for you if you're not completely killing the DS2500s in just a couple laps. RSL29 and RSL19 F/R are endurance compounds, pretty nice to rotors, etc. from what I understand.

I really want to try G-Loc R12/R10 combo at some point, but they're picky about compound compatibility so really need to time it to when I need to replace all 4 rotors as well.

 

[2LEEGIT]

…

DerHas or anyone else, curious if you have ever driven your car or another GTI with a BBK? Just wondering what the difference in stopping power is - will the above get me to within 9/10ths of a BBK, would it be a night and day difference or not really that noticeable?

Running Neuspeed BBK on stock pp rotors, my car didn’t come with pp brakes and was difficult finding good track pads was the reason for the upgrade. It’s a huge difference in pedal feel/effort, bite and wear in the best positive way.

Not sure how much going to 2-piece rotors will help. *Shameless plug here, I have a set of 2-piece 340mm pp rotors available if you’re interested in trying.

 

[scrllock]

It honestly sounds like Pagid might be a decent option for you if you're not completely killing the DS2500s in just a couple laps. RSL29 and RSL19 F/R are endurance compounds, pretty nice to rotors, etc. from what I understand.

problem with pagid is they don't make race pads for any of the mk7 rear shapes, afaik.

 

[DerHase]

problem with pagid is they don't make race pads for any of the mk7 rear shapes, afaik.

MK7 PP (mech e brake caliper) = MK5 R32 rear pad shape


https://www.pagidracing.com/en/prod...ing-brake-pads/shape-detail/s/shape-8046.html


Edit:
Post in thread 'ST40 Brake Pad Reference Guide'
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/st40-brake-pad-reference-guide.402505/post-7840214
https://golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/st40-brake-pad-reference-guide.402505/post-7840214

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

Nothing substitutes a true track pad. I’ve tried over the years on different platforms in search of the magic dual duty pad; Hawk HP+, Carbotech Panther Plus, Porterfield R4S, Ferodo DS2500, PowerStop Track Day and EBC Yellow and they have all asked for a break at the 20min mark.

The factory PP can perform well.
I tried using the street/autox Porterfield R4S first couple track days in the GTI and I’d have to modulate/manage braking and come in around the 20min mark for a cool down.

Then I tried track dedicated R4 up front with ECS 2pc rotors and I was able to stay out there complete 40min sessions while getting on the brakes HARD. No fade.

Why have I chosen Porterfield? Over the past 20 years I’ve found I like it’s braking characteristics the most and the R4S dusts the least of the list I made up top, for daily.

 

[SD-GTI]

I’ve always like Porterfield R4.

You can use R4 up front and R4S at the rear. When done with track day swap in R4S up front and you’re good for Daily and Autox duty. The R4 and R4S compound are interchangeable.

Where are you buying these pads? I can't find the R4 fronts anywhere! I might try this strategy, still debating whether I go with 2-piece rotors up front or just give the stock rotors a few tries to see if I really need them...

 

[DerHase]

Where are you buying these pads? I can't find the R4 fronts anywhere! I might try this strategy, still debating whether I go with 2-piece rotors up front or just give the stock rotors a few tries to see if I really need them...

Just try the stock rotors/Zimmerman blanks. I still have gotten 14+ days on track before they crack to the point of needing replacement.

Again: if you're making DS2500s work "ok" then rotor temps are not going to be a limiting factor.

Pick up some Genesis temperature indicating paint to know for sure though.

https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Brake-Temp-Paint-fl/dp/B000UZEI6C

 

[SierraCarrera]

I will be trying out a set of iSweep IS3500 in the next months or two. I used to run EBC Blues but those were starting to fall apart as I got faster and pushed into harder, later braking

 

[SouthFL_Mk7.5]

Where are you buying these pads? I can't find the R4 fronts anywhere! I might try this strategy, still debating whether I go with 2-piece rotors up front or just give the stock rotors a few tries to see if I really need them...

Bestbrakes . Com

Use the brake finder feature and use 2018 GTI as search w/340mm rotor for the front. You will see Porterfield R4 and R4S pop up as well as Ferodo DS2500 .