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Deadset, hotchkis, pendulum...

theDoktor

Go Kart Champion
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
From an outside perspective, I would think some of the people at these races may be super douche. If someone called me a cheat, I would just leave, not letting people take my car apart.

Agreed. I've seen both situations. Problem is if you are called out, are actually legal and you leave without going thru the process. You are then considered a confirmed cheater, and there are follow-up consequences for that, even though you may be completely innocent.
 

Gptuners

Drag Racing Champion
Location
KY
Car(s)
2019 GTI S
I feel like the first time I'd be calleda cheater, if be flattered. "Yeah!!! I'm finally fast enough for someone to call me out!" Then by the second or third time, I'd be pissed at the inconvenience of it all.
 

xXDavidCXx

Autocross Champion
Location
AZ
Car(s)
2017 GTI SE DSG
They are allowed only if explicitly noted in the class rules. SCCA Street classes.

13.1 AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
If a modification is not specifically authorized in this or previous Sections of these Rules, it is not allowed.


13.8 SUSPENSION
B. Both the front and rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjustment arrangements or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances. This encompasses both alignment and ride height parameters if such adjustments are provided by the standard components and specified by the factory as normal methods of adjustment. However, no suspension part may be modified for the purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically authorized by the factory shop manual.


Deadset kit components are not specifically authorized in the factory shop manual, so they are not allowed. Believe me, if they were allowed, I'd be using them. I've been around to see many protests at events over the years regarding questionable "adjustments", and I don't want to be a target.

I don't agree with your assessment of the rules. You are over thinking the intent of the rule.

The only part of 13.8 B that matters is the underlined in red sections.

Think about it this way.

Is anyone restricted from loosening the sub-frame bolts and then tightening them again? No, of course not. The SCCA cannot regulate what bolts get loosened or replaced.

What about if while the bolts are loosened, you shift the sub-frame all the way to one side? Again, who cares? That falls under "inherent manufacturing tolerances" just like slop in the lower ball joint.

If we want to set the sub-frame to a specific location, full left, full right or center, what's stopping us? Nothing. It's "inherent manufacturing tolerances".

No suspension part is being modified, and the factory shop manual does not have to address "inherent manufacturing tolerances" and how to use them, because it's understood that these tolerances exist.

Again, what is the performance advantage? What if I just loosened the bolts while on the alignment rack, and set the sub-frame to "center" and then tightened the bolts. It's the same advantage, so It's a non-issue.

No-one can successfully protest you for this "modification", as it does not give you any additional or extra, or previously non-existent alignment slop.
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Champion
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
I don't agree with your assessment of the rules. You are over thinking the intent of the rule.

The only part of 13.8 B that matters is the underlined in red sections.

Think about it this way.

Is anyone restricted from loosening the sub-frame bolts and then tightening them again? No, of course not. The SCCA cannot regulate what bolts get loosened or replaced.

What about if while the bolts are loosened, you shift the sub-frame all the way to one side? Again, who cares? That falls under "inherent manufacturing tolerances" just like slop in the lower ball joint.

If we want to set the sub-frame to a specific location, full left, full right or center, what's stopping us? Nothing. It's "inherent manufacturing tolerances".

No suspension part is being modified, and the factory shop manual does not have to address "inherent manufacturing tolerances" and how to use them, because it's understood that these tolerances exist.

Again, what is the performance advantage? What if I just loosened the bolts while on the alignment rack, and set the sub-frame to "center" and then tightened the bolts. It's the same advantage, so It's a non-issue.

No-one can successfully protest you for this "modification", as it does not give you any additional or extra, or previously non-existent alignment slop.

I agree completely with what you stated and your reasoning. However, it's the sentence following what you redlined that gets ya in trouble (what I have in boldface below).

13.8 SUSPENSION
B. Both the front and rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjustment arrangements or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances. This encompasses both alignment and ride height parameters if such adjustments are provided by the standard components and specified by the factory as normal methods of adjustment. However, no suspension part may be modified for the purpose of adjustment unless such modification is specifically authorized by the factory shop manual.

The bits and pieces of the deadset kits are not noted in the factory shop manual. See attached. There are a couple of OEM alignment pins specified in the text that can be used to ensure that the sub-frame is centered on re-installation, but they are just temporary substitutes for two of the attachment bolts.

I have decades of experience writing technical specifications & competition rules and regulations, running major motorsport events, as well as being a participant and competitor, so I've learned a thing or two over the years. This rules and regulation stuff gets pretty challenging when large dollar amounts are on the line for the competitors. You had better know your stuff or you're going to being having less-than-pleasant conversations with attorneys.
 

Attachments

  • GTI Front Subframe.pdf
    492.3 KB · Views: 330

xXDavidCXx

Autocross Champion
Location
AZ
Car(s)
2017 GTI SE DSG
I agree completely with what you stated and your reasoning. However, it's the sentence following what you redlined that gets ya in trouble (what I have in boldface below).



The bits and pieces of the deadset kits are not noted in the factory shop manual. See attached. There are a couple of OEM alignment pins specified in the text that can be used to ensure that the sub-frame is centered on re-installation, but they are just temporary substitutes for two of the attachment bolts.

I have decades of experience writing technical specifications & competition rules and regulations, running major motorsport events, as well as being a participant and competitor, so I've learned a thing or two over the years. This rules and regulation stuff gets pretty challenging when large dollar amounts are on the line for the competitors. You had better know your stuff or you're going to being having less-than-pleasant conversations with attorneys.

There are two ways to adjust your alignment spelled out in this paragraph.
1. Use of factory adjustment range (if such adjustments are provided by the standard components and specified by the factory as normal methods of adjustment)

OR

2. By taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances

#2 is separate from #1. That's why I didn't talk about the second sentence, because it's irrelevant.

The first sentence says all we need to know. "B. Both the front and rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjustment arrangements or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances."

There won't be any attorneys involved at SCCA Nationals if this gets protested. Just one guy who wasted his protest fee on a "modification" that didn't give an advantage.
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Champion
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
I agree with both scenario 1 & 2. It's the rest of that paragraph that will bite you in the ass. My experience is that the SCCA Protest Committees (especially at Nationals) will cut nobody any slack when a protest is filed. Suspension stuff and electronics tweaking are major hot button items.
If you don't believe me, that's fine. You go first.

I've organized & made rules for events where the prize money is deep into six figures, unlike any autocross. Things get REALLY serious then.
 

xXDavidCXx

Autocross Champion
Location
AZ
Car(s)
2017 GTI SE DSG
I agree with both scenario 1 & 2. It's the rest of that paragraph that will bite you in the ass. My experience is that the SCCA Protest Committees (especially at Nationals) will cut nobody any slack when a protest is filed. Suspension stuff and electronics tweaking are major hot button items.
If you don't believe me, that's fine. You go first.

I've organized & made rules for events where the prize money is deep into six figures, unlike any autocross. Things get REALLY serious then.
The "rest of the paragraph" is only discussing "Use of factory adjustment range." I can't see why you don't agree.

By your logic, if I think you've loosened your sub-frame to "gain" an alignment advantage (to which there is none) I could protest you because the factory service manual does not say that adjusting the sub-frame is a "normal method of 'alignment' adjustment? The front sway-bar has to be installed with the sub-frame dropped, so you should see why this line of thinking is flawed.

I'm guess here because you haven't clearly explained why my logic is flawed, except to say, "the rest of the paragraph will bite me in the ass."

And this is SCCA solo where it's not as SERSBZNZ as some make it out to be. At the end of the day, worst case, what's at stake is a plastic trophy and maybe a jacket.
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Champion
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
David, the shifting of the sub-frame to adjust alignment is specifically allowed in the factory shop manual. Ref. p. 300-301 and attached screenshot. Note 5 specifically authorizes the movement of the subframe to adjust camber.
1590406062728.png
What isn't allowed is the use of any means to install, locate, or adjust any suspension component that is not an OEM means, method or material. This is explicitly not allowed by Rule 13.1.
13.1 AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
If a modification is not specifically authorized in this or previous Sections of these Rules, it is not allowed.

Your analysis and logic is completely accurate and I agree with -up to a point. A deadset kit or any of it's components that are not a direct replacement only for OEM parts (and serve no additional purpose or function) are explicitly not allowed.
If one chooses to participate in any activity, you are tacitly acknowledging that you willingly accept the rules and regulations that apply to that activity. While these rules can be oftentimes be reasonably argued against, sometimes successfully, for the most part they will remain as written and are interpreted by those assigned to that task by the activity. These rules and regulations are in place because experience has determined that their existence is critical for the activity to function as intended. Are there often loopholes that a clever participant can exploit to their advantage (and the disadvantage of others)? Oftentimes, yes. And if the perceived loophole is determined to actually be a violation of those rules by those with that responsibility, your freely chosen choice to participate also acknowledges your acceptance of the consequences for violating those rules. The choice to follow only part of the rules and ignore the rest has consequences.
 

xXDavidCXx

Autocross Champion
Location
AZ
Car(s)
2017 GTI SE DSG
David, the shifting of the sub-frame to adjust alignment is specifically allowed in the factory shop manual. Ref. p. 300-301 and attached screenshot. Note 5 specifically authorizes the movement of the subframe to adjust camber.View attachment 174442 What isn't allowed is the use of any means to install, locate, or adjust any suspension component that is not an OEM means, method or material. This is explicitly not allowed by Rule 13.1.
13.1 AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
If a modification is not specifically authorized in this or previous Sections of these Rules, it is not allowed.

Your analysis and logic is completely accurate and I agree with -up to a point. A deadset kit or any of it's components that are not a direct replacement only for OEM parts (and serve no additional purpose or function) are explicitly not allowed.
If one chooses to participate in any activity, you are tacitly acknowledging that you willingly accept the rules and regulations that apply to that activity. While these rules can be oftentimes be reasonably argued against, sometimes successfully, for the most part they will remain as written and are interpreted by those assigned to that task by the activity. These rules and regulations are in place because experience has determined that their existence is critical for the activity to function as intended. Are there often loopholes that a clever participant can exploit to their advantage (and the disadvantage of others)? Oftentimes, yes. And if the perceived loophole is determined to actually be a violation of those rules by those with that responsibility, your freely chosen choice to participate also acknowledges your acceptance of the consequences for violating those rules. The choice to follow only part of the rules and ignore the rest has consequences.
Thank you for the additional clarification on your point.

In no way am I attempting to not be in compliance.

I was attempting to show how I'm not in "non-compliance" if that makes sense.

I'm work in the military so I know far more about compliance than the average person. Which also means I know far more about reading the rules and knowing what compliance looks like. Not just a cursory glance at a rule. I thinking critically about why the rule exists, or how I can stay in compliance, but maybe "get around" the rule. I always challenge obscure rules, so please don't take my comments as anything other than an attempt to understand your position and see if we can't come to a resolution.

I will consult with a guy in my region who is on the STAC and see what he says.
 

theDoktor

Go Kart Champion
Location
Buffalo, NY area
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
Good for you! Nothing wrong with challenging or questioning obscure or less-than tightly-defined rules IMHO. I've been known to "creatively interpret" a rule or two over time. Critical thinking is a skill far too few people have and it takes effort & exercise to keep it functioning and sharp.

Thank you for your efforts to contact the guy on the STAC. I'd love to get his input.
 

xXDavidCXx

Autocross Champion
Location
AZ
Car(s)
2017 GTI SE DSG
I should have checked the install instructions. https://www.uspmotorsports.com/get_doc.php?file=9794e3b54bd960ccacd703f03b1b4515

As it turns out, the collars go between the top of the sub-frame, and the bottom of the chassis, so sandwiched between the sub-frame and body.

I thought they attached at the underside to the sub-frame.

According to 14.8 A "...this does not allow the use of spacers that alter suspension geometry...."

The dead set kit acts as a spacer, and effectively moves the lower mounting points further from the top points.

That's the final straw folks, it's not legal in Street or Street Touring

Move along, nothing to see here
 

The Dude

Autocross Champion
Location
PNW
Car(s)
MK7 GTI S
Thank you for the additional clarification on your point.

In no way am I attempting to not be in compliance.

I was attempting to show how I'm not in "non-compliance" if that makes sense.

I'm work in the military so I know far more about compliance than the average person. Which also means I know far more about reading the rules and knowing what compliance looks like. Not just a cursory glance at a rule. I thinking critically about why the rule exists, or how I can stay in compliance, but maybe "get around" the rule. I always challenge obscure rules, so please don't take my comments as anything other than an attempt to understand your position and see if we can't come to a resolution.

I will consult with a guy in my region who is on the STAC and see what he says.
The only real reason to learn rules in the military is to see which ones you can get away with bending or breaking.
 
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