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Crank walk / class action (we need to get together)

PerceivedShift

Autocross Champion
Location
Virginia
A few posts back - the one with all the pics shows the new lower bearings installed making it 360. Installing a new upper OE bearing is super easy - it just rotates up in those slots. OE bearing doesn't have a tab on it. I'm at 95k miles with 55k of that on a Sachs performance clutch.

Agreed with measuring by pushing the clutch in to measure is a good approach - low fuss and mess... Being consistent on whatever method is what is important to measure the change over time. When it hits that magic limit, swap new bearings in.

When I inspected my worn thrust bearing, it looks like an oiling issue could be contributing to the premature failure. This would also explain why it happens to some owners and not others. I imagine that city driving is worse than rural... More starts after longer off time is worse... etc...
Yea, if anything, the combo of aftermarket pressure plate, number of cold starts, cold start temperature, oil type, oil change intervals, and other unknown variables can all be contributors. But if we can start a thread one day and begin tracking axial clearance across a number of GTIs and Rs we might at least be able to make people who are fearful of crankwalk...much less fearful of it happening, especially as we see more high mileage EA888 gen 3s running around. Some might even just jump the gun and do a similar fix as you did. I have a second car, so the 3 week turnaround time wouldn't be a problem for me. But first I'd like to track axial clearance for a while just to build up some data for others using an SOP.

At the time, I thought about taking them to a local fabricator to see if they could make a solid 360 thrust bearing but the wait time was longer than what I wanted to wait.
If this was to be done wouldn't you have to change the location of the thrust bearing?
 

ArrgRer

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
USA
Car(s)
Mk7 VW Golf R
Yea, if anything, the combo of aftermarket pressure plate, number of cold starts, cold start temperature, oil type, oil change intervals, and other unknown variables can all be contributors. But if we can start a thread one day and begin tracking axial clearance across a number of GTIs and Rs we might at least be able to make people who are fearful of crankwalk...much less fearful of it happening, especially as we see more high mileage EA888 gen 3s running around. Some might even just jump the gun and do a similar fix as you did. I have a second car, so the 3 week turnaround time wouldn't be a problem for me. But first I'd like to track axial clearance for a while just to build up some data for others using an SOP.


If this was to be done wouldn't you have to change the location of the thrust bearing?
FYI - I did take some measurements of the machined cap... so if you happen to have access to a CNC...

It's 73.3mm diameter. The total thickness is 19.1mm, equidistant from the centerline. Tab is 8.48mm wide and is 42.65mm from the machined edge of the cap.

I'm trying to cross reference the tabbed bearing for future reference, but so far I don't have a part number. I requested a couple of spares from the shop in the UK.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
Geez... why not start a religious war while you're at it! ;)

I'm 5w30 Castrol full synthetic for the most part.
I only ask, because it seems oil film strength would be a major factor in this kind of wear. Good synthetic heavier weigh oils tend to do better in this regard, at least if you don't live in the frozen north. 🤣
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
Good read if you have a week of nothing better to do.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

TLDR:

1. 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API SP = 152,674 psi

It's gold, Jerry. Beat out the previous king of oils, Amzoil Signature Series in 5W-30, which is what most rally teams use.
 
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scrllock

Autocross Champion
Location
MI
Good read if you have a week of nothing better to do.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

TLDR:

1. 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API SP = 152,674 psi

It's gold, Jerry. Beat out the previous king of oils, Amzoil Signature Series in 5W-30, which is what most rally teams use.
Haven't read up on his psi testing method (or why that would be the ultimate measure of oil durability) but it looks like quite a few popular oils aren't on his list. Looks like he's only tested a few 5w40 oils. And I'm approaching this statement with extreme skepticism:

Bottom Line: No matter what is in a motor oil’s formulation, or how it is manufactured, the ONLY thing that matters when it comes to a motor oil’s wear protection capability as it comes out of the bottle, is the psi value it can produce in my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil. That is the ONLY way we can find out how motor oils compare regarding the most important thing they do, which is PREVENT WEAR.

Feels a lot like MyGolfMk7 but for oil. One testing metric, very incomplete set of test subjects, proclamation of the absolute best product.
Personally I like a high HTST (more important for hard use) and high TBN (more important with ethanol, you get acid by products and more base means more life). But man, so many gems.

E-Fuels’ higher octane will not trigger the engine’s knock sensor to retard the ignition timing as soon as gasoline will. But, you would STILL be running LOW ENERGY E-fuel, resulting in that LOSS of HP and that LOSS of MPG mentioned above. So, there is NO good reason to race normal factory Flex-Fuel vehicles with LOWER ENERGY E-Fuels.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
Haven't read up on his psi testing method (or why that would be the ultimate measure of oil durability) but it looks like quite a few popular oils aren't on his list. Looks like he's only tested a few 5w40 oils. And I'm approaching this statement with extreme skepticism:



Feels a lot like MyGolfMk7 but for oil. One testing metric, very incomplete set of test subjects, proclamation of the absolute best product.
Personally I like a high HTST (more important for hard use) and high TBN (more important with ethanol, you get acid by products and more base means more life). But man, so many gems.
Read up, his test is designed to test film strength, it's a lot of info, but worth the time.

I think it's very relevant to the issue with the thrust washer in our cars.
 
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GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL

ArrgRer

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
USA
Car(s)
Mk7 VW Golf R
Update after a few months... Sorry in advance for the length and rambling of this...

FYI - the tabbed bearing is a very common ACL 2T1644-STD bearing for lots of VWs. It's slightly larger diameter than the factory stock ones, plus the tab. The journal is machined to accept this one.

So, as I mentioned in an early post, my crankshaft has some wear on it from the initial incident. After re-assembly and a factory upper bearing and the tabbed bearing on the machined journal, I ended up eventually with too much lateral play - about .650 mm - pretty much equal to the wear on the crank. This was after about 500 miles. Currently, I'm on my second attempt using a modified bearing that I created by stacking 2 factory upper bearings, spot welding together from the backside, thinning it to about 3mm, and machining the contour of the front to match the crankshaft wear profile. Not ideal, but so far holding after about 1,000 miles.

Something else is seriously wrong with this engine though beside just this thrust bearing... I'm sure this is all related, but here are the other issues. Once in a while, I get a low oil pressure light - Always at idle, but never when it's cold and never when it's fully up to temperature. I only get it when the oil temperature is between about 170 and 200 degrees F. On VCDS it is usually accompanied by a pressure switch malfunction.

17003 - Oil pressure Switch 3
P168C 00 [038] - Implausible Signal with Engine Running
15189 - Oil Pressure Switch for reduced Oil Pressure
P164D 00 [038] - Malfunction

Next is what I think may be the death nail... I have a developed (around the same time as this saga started) a rattle/clatter sound somewhere. At first it would only happen at about 2,800 RPM and only if engine load was very light (like letting off the gas when shifting). Now, it happens at a wider range of RPM, but still only under light load. The frequency changes with RPM and is metallic - kind of like a sound an old engine with a stuck lifter makes and higher pitched than rod knock. I have listened very carefully while someone tries to induce it and it seems like it is coming from near the intake camshaft pulley end. It could be lower though. I pulled off the cam cover (pita job) to inspect the rockers and anything else I could see in there - everything is in place and nothing obvious. The wear on the intake journals/cam was definitely higher than I would expect though versus the exhaust journals/cam with zero wear.

As an aside, I removed the oil cap to see if I could hear anything different and noted quite strong vacuum on it. Is this normal? I thought it should only be very light suction...

Where to go from here? I am planning on pulling the cam bridge this weekend to inspect it for blockages, but that's where I think I'll stop. Any guesses? Maybe a tensioner or guide? Maybe the balance shafts?

Obviously, I'm going to need a new engine at some point it looks like and I'm debating what to do in the long run - major rebuild? build new engine? salvage engine? dump it?

Thanks for listening. Opinions welcome.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
Update after a few months... Sorry in advance for the length and rambling of this...

FYI - the tabbed bearing is a very common ACL 2T1644-STD bearing for lots of VWs. It's slightly larger diameter than the factory stock ones, plus the tab. The journal is machined to accept this one.

So, as I mentioned in an early post, my crankshaft has some wear on it from the initial incident. After re-assembly and a factory upper bearing and the tabbed bearing on the machined journal, I ended up eventually with too much lateral play - about .650 mm - pretty much equal to the wear on the crank. This was after about 500 miles. Currently, I'm on my second attempt using a modified bearing that I created by stacking 2 factory upper bearings, spot welding together from the backside, thinning it to about 3mm, and machining the contour of the front to match the crankshaft wear profile. Not ideal, but so far holding after about 1,000 miles.

Something else is seriously wrong with this engine though beside just this thrust bearing... I'm sure this is all related, but here are the other issues. Once in a while, I get a low oil pressure light - Always at idle, but never when it's cold and never when it's fully up to temperature. I only get it when the oil temperature is between about 170 and 200 degrees F. On VCDS it is usually accompanied by a pressure switch malfunction.

17003 - Oil pressure Switch 3
P168C 00 [038] - Implausible Signal with Engine Running
15189 - Oil Pressure Switch for reduced Oil Pressure
P164D 00 [038] - Malfunction

Next is what I think may be the death nail... I have a developed (around the same time as this saga started) a rattle/clatter sound somewhere. At first it would only happen at about 2,800 RPM and only if engine load was very light (like letting off the gas when shifting). Now, it happens at a wider range of RPM, but still only under light load. The frequency changes with RPM and is metallic - kind of like a sound an old engine with a stuck lifter makes and higher pitched than rod knock. I have listened very carefully while someone tries to induce it and it seems like it is coming from near the intake camshaft pulley end. It could be lower though. I pulled off the cam cover (pita job) to inspect the rockers and anything else I could see in there - everything is in place and nothing obvious. The wear on the intake journals/cam was definitely higher than I would expect though versus the exhaust journals/cam with zero wear.

As an aside, I removed the oil cap to see if I could hear anything different and noted quite strong vacuum on it. Is this normal? I thought it should only be very light suction...

Where to go from here? I am planning on pulling the cam bridge this weekend to inspect it for blockages, but that's where I think I'll stop. Any guesses? Maybe a tensioner or guide? Maybe the balance shafts?

Obviously, I'm going to need a new engine at some point it looks like and I'm debating what to do in the long run - major rebuild? build new engine? salvage engine? dump it?

Thanks for listening. Opinions welcome.
I'd find a low mileage engine.
 

JC_451

Autocross Champion
Location
NJ, one of the nice parts.
Car(s)
2017 GTI Sport
Update after a few months... Sorry in advance for the length and rambling of this...

FYI - the tabbed bearing is a very common ACL 2T1644-STD bearing for lots of VWs. It's slightly larger diameter than the factory stock ones, plus the tab. The journal is machined to accept this one.

So, as I mentioned in an early post, my crankshaft has some wear on it from the initial incident. After re-assembly and a factory upper bearing and the tabbed bearing on the machined journal, I ended up eventually with too much lateral play - about .650 mm - pretty much equal to the wear on the crank. This was after about 500 miles. Currently, I'm on my second attempt using a modified bearing that I created by stacking 2 factory upper bearings, spot welding together from the backside, thinning it to about 3mm, and machining the contour of the front to match the crankshaft wear profile. Not ideal, but so far holding after about 1,000 miles.

Something else is seriously wrong with this engine though beside just this thrust bearing... I'm sure this is all related, but here are the other issues. Once in a while, I get a low oil pressure light - Always at idle, but never when it's cold and never when it's fully up to temperature. I only get it when the oil temperature is between about 170 and 200 degrees F. On VCDS it is usually accompanied by a pressure switch malfunction.

17003 - Oil pressure Switch 3
P168C 00 [038] - Implausible Signal with Engine Running
15189 - Oil Pressure Switch for reduced Oil Pressure
P164D 00 [038] - Malfunction

Next is what I think may be the death nail... I have a developed (around the same time as this saga started) a rattle/clatter sound somewhere. At first it would only happen at about 2,800 RPM and only if engine load was very light (like letting off the gas when shifting). Now, it happens at a wider range of RPM, but still only under light load. The frequency changes with RPM and is metallic - kind of like a sound an old engine with a stuck lifter makes and higher pitched than rod knock. I have listened very carefully while someone tries to induce it and it seems like it is coming from near the intake camshaft pulley end. It could be lower though. I pulled off the cam cover (pita job) to inspect the rockers and anything else I could see in there - everything is in place and nothing obvious. The wear on the intake journals/cam was definitely higher than I would expect though versus the exhaust journals/cam with zero wear.

As an aside, I removed the oil cap to see if I could hear anything different and noted quite strong vacuum on it. Is this normal? I thought it should only be very light suction...

Where to go from here? I am planning on pulling the cam bridge this weekend to inspect it for blockages, but that's where I think I'll stop. Any guesses? Maybe a tensioner or guide? Maybe the balance shafts?

Obviously, I'm going to need a new engine at some point it looks like and I'm debating what to do in the long run - major rebuild? build new engine? salvage engine? dump it?

Thanks for listening. Opinions welcome.
Stop spending money/time.

It runs, just dump it, start over fresh.
 
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