Coilover noises

[xXDavidCXx]

1. I bought a kit "designed" for my car. I expected it to work in the configuration in which it was sent to me- it never has.

Unfortunately, generic shocks bodies with application specific hardware are not designed enough for a particular application to be worthy of being referred to as designed for a particular car.

Custom shocks with the body cut down or built up for the specific car’s needs for bump and rebound travel and valving are “designed” for a particular car.

Anything short of that above is just a compromise in ride height, travel, or both.

5. It would appear the only solution - as David said - is stiffer springs, or somehow more pre-load, but even as shown below, the ring is damn near impossible to turn. I believe this to be the only solution at this point. I could swap on the 8k springs I still have... but will the street vs comp valving had made a difference? Plus I think I'll be over sprung for my current valving. So at what spring weight will it stop?

You would likely be fine with the stiffer springs since the shock is adjustable with a range of forces.

I believe there is one rebound force needed for a car, based on the car’s un-sprung weight, and this value rarely changes, expect with payload and fuel changes.

In racing applications you can closely control payload, so the desire rebound curve is very narrow and bump/compression forces required are grip based (tires/temps/surface grip).

Having an adjustable shock allows a wide range of desired rebound curves based on the possibility of a wide variation in un-spring weight.

What race specific valving usually does is adds low speed bump and rebound, which street shocks do not have, for comfort reasons.



For example, here is a front shock dyno from my Ohlins.

Even these shocks are a compromise because bump and rebound are adjusted at the same time.

If you are reading a shock’s design features and it mentions that adjusting both at the same time is a good thing, walk away.

The best setups have separate controls for bump vs rebound.

That being said, for the $$$ the Ohlins R&T setup is really good.

Look at the forces below 3 inches per second as the adjuster is turned. Lots of rebound (bottom) and a moderate amount of bump (top) is added.

I can’t control the forces separately so if I set the forces to give the correct rebound for the spring rate and un-spring weight, I probably don’t have the correct bump setting for the conditions of the day, which then may drive me to soften rebound to get less bump, causing the vehicle weight to be under dampened.

Anyway, shock rant over.

8. I'm just gonna ask this again. How or why is this like this. Shouldn't this have come to me working? I shouldn't have to "fix" this shit. It's not like I cobbled together part from ebay.

No one but Red shift can answer this question.

 

[scrllock]

6. Why is Redshift selling me a kit like this? It was supposed to be purpose built for the mk7. Isn't this the whole point of buying their kits?
8. I'm just gonna ask this again. How or why is this like this. Shouldn't this have come to me working? I shouldn't have to "fix" this shit. It's not like I cobbled together part from ebay.

Odds are it's "purpose built" for whatever chassis they had on hand to get some rough measurements on (maybe a mk6).

Redshift has always been a reseller for cheap taiwanese coilovers. They just shifted from BC to standard. It's not "their" brand, it's this: https://std.com.tw/product.html#kind01

Unfortunately no matter how good of valving you put in them, it doesn't fix poor overseas build quality. These are basically ebay parts, just with some custom internals.

 

[ZERO815]

As @xXDavidCXx has mentioned before, for me it sounds like binding coils. I know you have tested w/ playdow on the middle coils, however coils1/2/3 are suspicious to me.

It can’t be new to redshift. On their website they show front struts w/ black isolators around the lower and upper coils.

When I was running Bilstein B16‘s on my GTI the transparent hose Bilstein uses had moved down on the coils a little bit, and I started to hear a similar annoying clunking on my car. Moved the hose back up and everything was fine again.

 

[tigeo]

Just want to say - I see no issue with Redshift coilovers which are re-valved (by them) BC or Standard..so many folks run this style of coilover without drama. BC is well regarded in the track scene as are Redshift. I know folks running custom Silvers, same kind of coilovers. I talk to the guy who works for Redshift and does their valving etc....he has an Alltrack and is part of our FB group. Here, there is either an install error or something actually not correct with the hardware itself. These shoudl be able to installed to not slam/make this noise. When folks say they are slamming over bumps, I usually go to issues with not enough bump travel hence my posts here and we've had a good discussion on spring rates, preload etc. Maybe the coils are binding but that isn't a slamming noise in my experience...more of a groan as they rub together and those coil covers help that issue. My H&Rs do that coming out of Hogpen at VIR....you can hear the groaning at ~2:14 here as I bottom out the coils at full compression:

 

[tigeo]

Unfortunately, generic shocks bodies with application specific hardware are not designed enough for a particular application to be worthy of being referred to as designed for a particular car.

Custom shocks with the body cut down or built up for the specific car’s needs for bump and rebound travel and valving are “designed” for a particular car.

Anything short of that above is just a compromise in ride height, travel, or both.


You would likely be fine with the stiffer springs since the shock is adjustable with a range of forces.

I believe there is one rebound force needed for a car, based on the car’s un-sprung weight, and this value rarely changes, expect with payload and fuel changes.

In racing applications you can closely control payload, so the desire rebound curve is very narrow and bump/compression forces required are grip based (tires/temps/surface grip).

Having an adjustable shock allows a wide range of desired rebound curves based on the possibility of a wide variation in un-spring weight.

What race specific valving usually does is adds low speed bump and rebound, which street shocks do not have, for comfort reasons.

View attachment 281611

For example, here is a front shock dyno from my Ohlins.

Even these shocks are a compromise because bump and rebound are adjusted at the same time.

If you are reading a shock’s design features and it mentions that adjusting both at the same time is a good thing, walk away.

The best setups have separate controls for bump vs rebound.

That being said, for the $$$ the Ohlins R&T setup is really good.

Look at the forces below 3 inches per second as the adjuster is turned. Lots of rebound (bottom) and a moderate amount of bump (top) is added.

I can’t control the forces separately so if I set the forces to give the correct rebound for the spring rate and un-spring weight, I probably don’t have the correct bump setting for the conditions of the day, which then may drive me to soften rebound to get less bump, causing the vehicle weight to be under dampened.

Anyway, shock rant over.

No one but Red shift can answer this question.

I wish it was super easy to swap suspension bits on these cars....I would love to try one of the adjustable body coilovers like BC/Silvers/Fortune Auto and really get to play with all the variables. I just hate that the boides are short/more limited travel but many run them happily including track use. I'll use my mountainbike suspension analogy again....yes, separate rebound, compression, AND low-speed compression are really key to have a super-dialed suspension that can be adjusted as-needed and handle the big and small bumps. What do you think about the digressive damping like on the higher end BCs, Fortunes, etc.? Is that what you mean by the low-speed control? My setup is H&R Sport springs w/Bilstein B8s...really good all around setup but the springs could be a bit higher rate and some more damping control would be nice but in the end, it's the least of my issues on-track...driver mod trumps all the suspension fiddling unless you are looking at v. small improvements in competition as in TTs.

 

[DerHase]

Not with these style coil over… when you add 5-10mm of preload on a 8” coil you are already at or right at the maximum distance/length/height the shaft can extend. Therefor loading the spring as he did not only tensioned the hell out of the collar on the threads while trying to thread it (soft materials - hence shredding having to cut the collar off - it only moved the bottom of the spring closed to the top hat. This is why I’m confused by you guys saying this as it’s not the same scenario as a full length strut like bilstein/kw/ohlin/h&r where there is lots of shaft/droop to work with

I know @xXDavidCXx already got an explanation across to you, and I think I posted this here before... but one more time for those to help understand how preload actually works:

FWIW Redshift is also doing a GoFundMe now because they're behind on money... I'm reading between the lines that it's due to problems with the Standard coilovers. Doesn't make anything right or wrong... but while I know they had a good product in the past, and I know Chris knows what he's doing when it comes to valving, etc... But I probably won't be recommending them to anyone until this stuff is sorted out.

IIRC the switch from BC to Standard happened because BC stopped selling individual components to him at dealer price because he was building better shocks out of their inexpensive BR line which was competing with their DR or DH or whatever their more expensive coilover line is. My Mazda2 custom 46mm shock (vs the normal 36mm) rear setup was cobbled together using some 9th Gen Civic lower mounts for instance to get a better shock for more fine control of running silly rates.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-red...y_link&utm_source=customer&utm_term=undefined

 

[xXDavidCXx]

As @xXDavidCXx has mentioned before, for me it sounds like binding coils. I know you have tested w/ playdow on the middle coils, however coils1/2/3 are suspicious to me.

It can’t be new to redshift. On their website they show front struts w/ black isolators around the lower and upper coils.



When I was running Bilstein B16‘s on my GTI the transparent hose Bilstein uses had moved down on the coils a little bit, and I started to hear a similar annoying clunking on my car. Moved the hose back up and everything was fine again.

I brought this up before and Ronald posted it wasn’t an issue. Though it seems still likely.

@RONALD, if you end up keeping the shocks, I’ll send you some springs to try out.

 

[tigeo]

I know @xXDavidCXx already got an explanation across to you, and I think I posted this here before... but one more time for those to help understand how preload actually works:

FWIW Redshift is also doing a GoFundMe now because they're behind on money... I'm reading between the lines that it's due to problems with the Standard coilovers. Doesn't make anything right or wrong... but while I know they had a good product in the past, and I know Chris knows what he's doing when it comes to valving, etc... But I probably won't be recommending them to anyone until this stuff is sorted out.

IIRC the switch from BC to Standard happened because BC stopped selling individual components to him at dealer price because he was building better shocks out of their inexpensive BR line which was competing with their DR or DH or whatever their more expensive coilover line is. My Mazda2 custom 46mm shock (vs the normal 36mm) rear setup was cobbled together using some 9th Gen Civic lower mounts for instance to get a better shock for more fine control of running silly rates.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-red...y_link&utm_source=customer&utm_term=undefined

oh wow...hope they make it!

I've seen this one before, good video! One thing they could have done on the pre-load portion was comment/measure the sag/shaft position as well as over height when compressed to help with the concept of preloading hte spring to increase/descrease ride height. You can clearly see more shaft out of the damper under weight when the preload is added but some measurements would have been nice. Also, to measure the spring height when preloaded and under weight would have shown the 55mm was a combo of the preload length and weight compressing it to alleviate that confusion that it compresses under the weight of the car 55 in both un- and pre-loaded cases.

 

[DerHase]

oh wow...hope they make it!

I've seen this one before, good video! One thing they could have done on the pre-load portion was comment/measure the sag/shaft position as well as over height when compressed to help with the concept of preloading hte spring to increase/descrease ride height. You can clearly see more shaft out of the damper under weight when the preload is added but some measurements would have been nice. Also, to measure the spring height when preloaded and under weight would have shown the 55mm was a combo of the preload length and weight compressing it to alleviate that confusion that it compresses under the weight of the car 55 in both un- and pre-loaded cases.

I agree... but we can do this for all the people who aren't going to watch the video:




Preloading trades down/droop travel in exchange for up/bump travel.



And for the people who think height has to be changed with the bottom adjustment because the Chinese told them to do it:

Results of changing the lower collar and it's effect on bump travel:






And one last time for the people in the back:

The only reason to preload your coilovers is if your shocks do not have enough overall travel, or are the wrong dimensions to make it useable travel! Or if your springs are too soft for the given amount of available travel.

 

[xXDavidCXx]

And one last time for the people in the back:

The only reason to preload your coilovers is if your shocks do not have enough overall travel, or are the wrong dimensions to make it useable travel! Or if your springs are too soft for the given amount of available travel.

Which is far more common in my experience, so the “only reason” is really the most common reasons.

 

[MonkeyMD]

Why would I donate to a business. I'll gladly invest, but never donate

 

[El_bigote_AJ]

Why would I donate to a business. I'll gladly invest, but never donate

I read through the go fund listing and they didn’t address that scenario also… not as an invest… but think of it as a high risk interest free loan.

I would think if they are down this road (go fund me) they may have Already went down the road of trying to get investors… reality is what they are selling and offering with services is probably tough to show a plan where is highly profitable to where any banks or investors would bite -I’m sure @GTI Jake can attest to this I’m sure… small shop local work is not a high margin profit market as they have to go through too many layers/tiers of others profits to even get to their final product.

 

[Roald]

Oh wow. This puts a significantly different light on on my experience thus far.

 

[Roald]

I brought this up before and Ronald posted it wasn’t an issue. Though it seems still likely.

@RONALD, if you end up keeping the shocks, I’ll send you some springs to try out.

Thank you! I’ll keep it in mind.

And while I’m here not to be too cheesy but this community has been so helpful with all of this. You’re dealing with a suspension neophyte and I feel like this whole thing has been a mess. So I really appreciate you dudes.

 

[Diggs24]

stock FTW