Burger Tuning JB4 Golf 1.8TSI MQB specific information thread

[donJimenez]

Amen. )

 

[danbfree]

Within efficiency range, boost is boost. It's not really true that a larger turbo makes more power at the same boost unless the smaller turbo is running outside its efficiency range.

I'll believe it when I see it... Given all things equal, and you are not limited by a torque target system, a bigger turbo has more volume so you are literally moving more air vs. a smaller turbo at the same psi. Otherwise, what would the point be in a bigger turbo? Just moving the efficiency range? Not really, that would just mean a given turbo could work less with less heat to make the same power. It still comes down to the simple fact that a bigger turbo moves more air at the same psi. Now, if you have links to specific info that says otherwise, I truly would love to see it. I take pride in not being so stubborn that I can't admit when I'm wrong.

Edit: I was talking in general terms, not specifically JB4/map torque targeting related. I can hit torque target of the stock tune with my IS20 about at about 1.5psi lower than an IS12, so there's that but we have moved on. I didn't mean to be a dick here, I was just looking for more details.

 

[ZuMBLe]

I've been doing research and all I keep finding is how bigger turbos make more power at the same psi, it's not rocket science... I suggest you show me proof otherwise instead of spouting nonsense over and over again... Now is that "TLDR" for your attention span?

I suggest you show me where it matters here. I also suggest you use the same car and same engine. And similar size exhaust housings. Use the example that matters. Oh and keep in mind this is in a JB4 thread. Go ahead. Also I said within efficiency range of both turbos. Maybe that part was TLDR for you?

How many different size turbos have you used and tuned on this platform? I'm on 3.

 

[danbfree]

I suggest you show me where it matters here. I also suggest you use the same car and same engine. And similar size exhaust housings. Use the example that matters. Oh and keep in mind this is in a JB4 thread. Go ahead. Also I said within efficiency range of both turbos. Maybe that part was TLDR for you?

How many different size turbos have you used and tuned on this platform? I'm on 3.

OK, lets take it down a notch, my apologies for any frustration but *you ignored my hypothetical and added your own factors*. I have been running turbo cars for literally 25 years, so let's just clarify and I promise not to ramble on and just stick to the minimum here so bear with me...

So again, take this statement on it's own, without injecting anything like efficiency into the equation and you'll see that I'm right:
*All else being equal, with sufficient air, fuel and no torque targeting to limit power*, a larger turbo will make more power than a smaller one at the same PSI.

So that said, lets add the MAP/torque targeting and JB4 into the equation...
So, when I had my OBD disconnected it was running Map 0, which is 100% stock. With an IS12 only maxing out at around 10psi to hit stock torque target, I was likely running even less, prob around 8 psi with the IS20 installed running stock tune.

That's all I'm saying: Due to higher internal volume, the IS20 will need less PSI to hit torque targets on a stock tune than an IS12 will... I can't uninstall and go back to the IS12 to compare, and it's close to freezing here but I can choose map 0 (no need to disconnect OBD) and see what psi I hit and see what it comes up with. I'll try it in a bit as work goes completely dead soon here.

Thanks for the further discussion.

 

[ZuMBLe]

OK, lets take it down a notch, my apologies for any frustration but *you ignored my hypothetical and added your own factors*. I have been running turbo cars for literally 25 years, so let's just clarify and I promise not to ramble on and just stick to the minimum here so bear with me...

So again, take this statement on it's own, without injecting anything like efficiency into the equation and you'll see that I'm right:
*All else being equal, with sufficient air, fuel and no torque targeting to limit power*, a larger turbo will make more power than a smaller one at the same PSI.

So that said, lets add the MAP/torque targeting and JB4 into the equation...
So, when I had my OBD disconnected it was running Map 0, which is 100% stock. With an IS12 only maxing out at around 10psi to hit stock torque target, I was likely running even less, prob around 8 psi with the IS20 installed running stock tune.

That's all I'm saying: Due to higher internal volume, the IS20 will need less PSI to hit torque targets on a stock tune than an IS12 will... I can't uninstall and go back to the IS12 to compare, and it's close to freezing here but I can choose map 0 (no need to disconnect OBD) and see what psi I hit and see what it comes up with. I'll try it in a bit as work goes completely dead soon here.

Thanks for the further discussion.

The torque targeting works by airmass, which is calculated via IAT and pressure (the sensor on the intake manifold). Your saying it's freezing, hurts your argument even more. Once you add torque targetting, everything goes out the window about PSI in this example. You're kind of moving the goal post. In your example, again, the car makes the same power because it will be torque targeting.

 

[danbfree]

The torque targeting works by airmass, which is calculated via IAT and pressure (the sensor on the intake manifold). Your saying it's freezing, hurts your argument even more. Once you add torque targetting, everything goes out the window about PSI in this example. You're kind of moving the goal post. In your example, again, the car makes the same power because it will be torque targeting.

I would never argue against any of that... the original point was with an IS20, because it's bigger, will take less boost to hit torque targeting than with the IS12. That's it. Go back and re-read that post of mine, that's exactly what I said... and overall a bigger turbo absolutely makes more power at the same PSI, all other factors equal and without a torque targeting limit. Sorry for any miscommunication, but you tried to say that because of *efficiency range* that bigger turbos don't make more power than small ones, which that actually worked against your argument, whatever that was, LOL... I laugh only because of the simple miscommunication, you had no need to throw out that unrelated argument, you actually moved the goalpost with that, we are actually very much on the same page overall.

 

[danbfree]

So, 2 runs back to back with my IS20/catted DP, new step colder plugs and intake mods. Fuel is crappy 7-11 off-brand 92+ winter gas. I'm down to about 1/3rd of a tank but have had to back boost down a bit more and more to get rid of all corrections, then I'll save as my "Shitty winter 92" file.
https://datazap.me/u/danbfree/map6-...-92-fuel?log=0&data=1-2-3-4-11-18-25-26-27-28

Unfortunately, my Map 0 I saved as an XLS in Excel so it fried the data when trying to rename back to .CSV.... Max boost was 9.2psi, which is just a little lower, about 1psi, than my IS12 hit when also at the same temperature. So indeed, with torque targeting in play, there is only about a 1 psi difference from the IS20 and IS12 on Map 0. About what I expected and yeah, felt as slow as stock but with better throttle response at low RPM with DP installed.

 

[odessa.filez]

Glad you two debated this as it wasn't clear to me on the role of torque targeting.

 

[danbfree]

Glad you two debated this as it wasn't clear to me on the role of torque targeting.

Yep, these newer direct injection turbo engines don't just make as much power as it can, like Zumble mentioned it uses all kinds of sensors and environmental factors to try to hit a specific power/torque target. In cold weather, you will often see less boost and in hotter weather higher boost as it tries to make, but not exceed, that set power level. For manufacturers it's good for consistency in power, mileage and CO2 emissions. A JB4 mainly literally functions by tricking the ECU into seeing less torque than is actually being made, causing the ECU to raise boost. Hope that makes better sense now!

 

[odessa.filez]

Yep, these newer direct injection turbo engines don't just make as much power as it can, like Zumble mentioned it uses all kinds of sensors and environmental factors to try to hit a specific power/torque target. In cold weather, you will often see less boost and in hotter weather higher boost as it tries to make, but not exceed, that set power level. For manufacturers it's good for consistency in power, mileage and CO2 emissions. A JB4 mainly literally functions by tricking the ECU into seeing less torque than is actually being made, causing the ECU to raise boost. Hope that makes better sense now!

it does.
Your previous points are supported elsewhere, but that's before the torque targeting comes into play.
On another thread, I was told that 'I should not expect better Map 2 performance by simply switching to is20'. This discussion reinforces that claim.

 

[danbfree]

it does.
Your previous points are supported elsewhere, but that's before the torque targeting comes into play.
On another thread, I was told that 'I should not expect better Map 2 performance by simply switching to is20'. This discussion reinforces that claim.

Although that should apply to all the preset maps, honestly I'm not entirely sure if its due to Map 6 opening up the torque targeting or simply able to run a little more boost, the difference with map 6 between the two is where the big gains are felt, about 40-50hp that feels stronger than it sounds. I'm gonna try map 3 with my IS20 and compare seat of pants/ butt dyno but also I can use a software dyno to compare. Although the numbers won't be 100% accurate the differences between the two will be. I'll post something soon on that.

 

[danbfree]

Unrelated to turbo size discussion, this is just a fun little comparison between IS12 Map 6 and IS20 w/DP Map 6 since I had logs of each... I just dialed in what looked about right for a correction factor and both the turbo runs were done right around freezing/32F. This newer IS20 run was struggling with poor fuel and was able to only hit about 1.5psi peak over the IS12 for a *peak* difference of only 33HP and 15TQ, but you can especially see how the DP I had with the IS20 brings the torque in much sooner and made it feel even faster on the butt dyno. I'm really glad I spent the money on that for sure!

 

[ZuMBLe]

OK, rough comparison between IS12 Map 6 and IS20 w/DP Map 6... I just dialed in what looked about right for a correction factor and both the turbo runs were done right around freezing/32F. This newer IS20 run was struggling with poor fuel and was able to only hit about 1.5psi peak over the IS12 for a *peak* difference of only 33HP and 15TQ, but you can especially see how the DP I had with the IS20 brings the torque in much sooner and made it feel even faster on the butt dyno. I'm really glad I spent the money on that for sure!

View attachment 236546

I don't think this was a fair comparison because you've removed the largest exhaust restriction after the turbo itself. Was this the same stretch of road? This isn't even really worth debating especially when talking about unplugging the JB4.

 

[danbfree]

I don't think this was a fair comparison because you've removed the largest exhaust restriction after the turbo itself. Was this the same stretch of road? This isn't even really worth debating especially when talking about unplugging the JB4.

It was just for fun to see how much I improved, it wasn't data for any kind of debate, sorry if I was misleading.

 

[ZuMBLe]

What are you talking about? Where did I say it was some kind of fair comparison at all or I was trying to debate anything? It was literally intended to not be equal and mainly just show the difference in how a DP and a little more boost helps. And yes, same stretch of road, same temperature, it was just a fun comparison, not intended as proof of anything for or against any arguments made earlier. All you do is carry a grudge and negativity attack anything that you don't agree with or want to turn into an argument. It's pretty much thread bullying and I'm done with you and your hijacking this thread like you are some expert above everyone else. A large number of pages back the real experts, who also don't have insecurities to attack others they disagree with, tried to put you in your place but they aren't here any more because they gave up on your shit too, the posts are all there! But I do have current, active access to them through FB so I'll just stick to there like they do now and now I see why!

Pretty sure I didn't attack you first. But whatever.

This isn't worth my time at all. You want to help, answer questions here with accurate information, consistently. If you can do that, go ahead. Stop telling people the OBD unplugged means +2 and garbage like that. Nobody needs your incorrect information and that incorrect information needs to stop, no matter how many circles you run in to try to prove your point right.