Audi TT (8S) Control Arms

[A3SBQ]

This is great.
I was actually thinking of doing this my self at first.
How mutch out do you think you need to space out?
We could even change bolt pathern to use TT ball joint or SuperPro adjustable type...

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[odessa.filez]

check out my example calc on post 89. for me I was thinking about 3mm out for camber and 5mm forward for caster. all this assumed an approximate distance between hub center and top of the lca of 5.5" (using steel spindles).

in case it's not obvious, the circle cut in pic 2 is intended to provide a flat surface (the new steel) for the back fastener, underneath the arm.

I don't think it will be easy to adapt the tt ball joint to the steel arm. the tt ball joint is much longer (extends) than the golf mk7 ball joint and can't really work on the flat surface of the arm.

my first thought was tt ball joint adaptation and I ordered a sample along with a cheap steel arm. gave up after seeing how big it is.

This is great.
I was actually thinking of doing this my self at first.
How mutch out do you think you need to space out?
We could even change bolt pathern to use TT ball joint or SuperPro adjustable type...

Sent fra min SM-G955F via Tapatalk

 

[00Zero]

I'm glad you found some TT arms, i had been looking but got distracted.

The solid rear rubber brushing should also help keep the alignment more stable on the track over modified golf arms.

Good luck, i eagerly await your results in hopes i can get -1.5 on my stock upper mounts.

-Jonathan

 

[odessa.filez]

I'm glad you found some TT arms, i had been looking but got distracted.

The solid rear rubber brushing should also help keep the alignment more stable on the track over modified golf arms.

Good luck, i eagerly await your results in hopes i can get -1.5 on my stock upper mounts.

-Jonathan

thanks. assuming everything bolts up okay, I plan to get the alignment measured by a pro. my current camber maxes out at -3 with plates fully adjusted (but still have outside tire wear at autocross), according to my cheapo bubble camber guage. arms should push it over 4

there is also a set of mk3 tts spindles w bearings and ball joints on ebay for cheap right now if anyone's interested. not saying I know they bolt up without issues... research it if curious.

 

[00Zero]

Have you tired an even larger rear bar?

I think it could reduce roll and minimize the front camber change making the -3deg more effective. (im arm chair quarterbacking here so correct me if im wrong)

I put the eibach (1" hollow / ~24mm solid equvlant) on my dd and i'm pretty happy. The extra weight in the rear of the GSW makes it equivalent roll stiffness distribution to about a 23mm on a GTI/Golf (if my math is good). So a larger hr 26mm solid or neuspeed 27mm hollow may be the ticket (still not as much rear roll stiffness as the GTI chasers are getting but better than the PP bar you have)

-Jonathan

 

[odessa.filez]

instead of bumping up to a thicker bar, I've added a bunch of spring rate via spring rubbers and bump springs. first pic shows a bump rubber on the front, they're used on the back as well. latter pic shows a 300lb bump spring on a koni. the bump springs can be easily packed / unpacked on the AX grid. they can also be completely unpacked for a compliant DD ride. the bump rubbers need a jack to place and remove but this can also be done to go from DD to AX and back.

my AX codriver is much more experienced at managing lift oversteer so he tends to prefer a looser car than me. we fully pack the bump springs for him, part way for me.

my general strategy is throw money at alignment, mostly up front. use the rear to balance the car. rear stiffness is good and can be approached several ways.

Have you tired an even larger rear bar?

I think it could reduce roll and minimize the front camber change making the -3deg more effective. (im arm chair quarterbacking here so correct me if im wrong)

I put the eibach (1" hollow / ~24mm solid equvlant) on my dd and i'm pretty happy. The extra weight in the rear of the GSW makes it equivalent roll stiffness distribution to about a 23mm on a GTI/Golf (if my math is good). So a larger hr 26mm solid or neuspeed 27mm hollow may be the ticket (still not as much rear roll stiffness as the GTI chasers are getting but better than the PP bar you have)

-Jonathan

 

[odessa.filez]

did my install of the arms and ball joints

Install wise, the driver's side front LCA bolt doesn't clear the auto trans pan, so I lowered the subframe to get clearance. problem solved. did have a glitch lifting the subframe as I determined the hard way that one of the steering gear bolts that fasten through the frame was cross threaded. fortunately there was enough thread to get a hacksaw on bolt and the bushing that it threads into is cheap. could have turned into a bigger problem. otherwise stuff was straight forward.

one has to change the ball joints on the spindle. I needed to do some lower spring perch r&r as well, so I removed the spindle / shock / spring / top mount assembly completely on both sides. this did help remove the ball joints...after removing the top fastener, it was easy to aim a heavy crowbar for a couple whacks on the spindle attachment point to set them free.

once everything was bolted back up, toe mostly realigned, I got the following camber estimates.

My garage floor is not perfectly level.
Ball joints were set to min neg camber...there's another 6mm available.
My camber plates were set to 0 adjustment for this measure.
I'm lowered up front by about an inch.
My control arms visualy look flat (level).

So...there's another 6mm available in the arms, which by my calcs would extend at least another negative two degrees. Camber plates would also add up to another -2.5 degrees...so possibly a number in excess of -6. Ludicrous Mode!

My understanding of dynamic camber and KPI is that adding more through the arms is preferable to doing so through the top mount...but it seems to be much easier to make changes through top plates...and my toe plate measurements suggest that my front track has grown by about an inch ( I have 20mm spacers up front already adding to front track so I can adjust back by removing).

***TOE
Another concern I have right now is toe and the length of our tie rods. after setting the car down, it looked silly. Toe plate measurements showed -3 5|8" toe out. Some was due to setting my top plates back to zero, maybe 2 tie rod threads. The rest (around 5 threads) I estimate from the arms.

I believe that I will see additional toe out of similar amount if I adjust through the ball joints (maxing them out). Adjusting through the top plate brings toe in.

Does anyone have experience with large tie rod adjustments like this? Maxing the ball joint camber means pushing the closer to their limits, should I be concerned or cautious in trying this? what happens when you run out tie rod? does the the threaded arm detatch or does it hit a stop point? Any wear consequences from extending them? I could be worrying about nothing perhaps but it prefer asking you first thanks for any feedback.

Driving Impressions: not much yet but steering feels a little sharper. Firmer bushings add a little nvh but not much. I'm on my street 195 65r15 all seasons, which have a lot of sidewall deflection. I'll be back on autocross tires in a couple weeks to get a better sense of nvh.

**** on a related topic

when my Golf steel spindles were off the car, I decided to measure the distance between the center of bearing to the bottom of the spindle's ball joint sleeve. I did this by measuring an outer diameter of the bearing splines, divided it by 2 and then measured the distance from the bearing splines to the the bottom of the sleeve. My estimate of the total is 4.05 inches.

If you ever have your alum GTI spindles off, I'm interested in that measurement. My hypothesis is that GTI spindles are taller and may raise roll center for the standard Golf.

 

[A3SBQ]

I have both Golf 7 R and Clubsport S spindles that I can measure if you want?

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[odessa.filez]

that would be awesome!
fyi best I can tell from vendor websites, the R spindles are the same part # as GTI (which makes your offer perfect).

 

[odessa.filez]

soooo...on the tie rod length, a friend suggested unthreading the tie rod ball joint off the rod. so I did. pic shows about 15 threads. lock nut is 24mm, so the threads cover at least an inch. since the tt ball joint extends ~6mm, I'm thinking I should be fine.

I'll try extending the arm ball joints and will report back on camber measurement this weekend.

now that I've adjusted all of the negative toe away, I can definitely say the steering feels heavier from the additional caster. before I think the toe out was cancelling some of it with amped up turn-in.

 

[00Zero]

did my install of the arms and ball joints
... Ball joints were set to min neg camber...there's another 6mm available.
My camber plates were set to 0 adjustment for this measure.
I'm lowered up front by about an inch.
My control arms visualy look flat (level).

So...there's another 6mm available in the arms, which by my calcs would extend at least another negative two degrees....

So if my napkin math is correct

A 1" drop would give about -0.75 to -1 deg camber

Your photos show about -2deg.

So the TT arms would add an adjustable -1 to -3 deg camber?

-Jonathan

 

[odessa.filez]

So if my napkin math is correct

A 1" drop would give about -0.75 to -1 deg camber

Your photos show about -2deg.

So the TT arms would add an adjustable -1 to -3 deg camber?

-Jonathan

stock control arm extends 15 inches from center of front bushing to center of ball joint.

if my arms were exactly flat, raising car back to stock height causes new horizontal distance to be spprox sqrt(square(15)-1) or sqrt(224)=14.966...horizontal length shrinks by 0.033 inches or 0.84mm. I was estimating 2.2mm for a degree of camber by numbers in an earlier post so my guess would be contribution from lowering is less than a half degree. by the same 2.2mm measure, once extended adjusted, I hope to see around 6mm/2.2mm degrees on top of the 2.5 - 2 reported earlier. Hope to have a handle on that measure this Sunday.

So far, the arms have been great on the street at min setting. The better bushings along with the wider track seems to pull the car through turns better than with the stock arms and max'd out camber plates which brought previous total to -3.

the increased track is something to consider for those of you who are already hellaflush. pic below are my 6" et43 stock wheels, 20mm spacers and tt arms.

 

[odessa.filez]

Took a crack at adjusting the ball joints out. Put the car on jack stands, removed wheels, loosened the three ball joint fasteners and pulled out the hub. tightened fasteners back, then adjusted tie rods to get toe close. Went for a ride, then adjusted toe again.

End result was less than expected... was thinking I'd at least hit -4.

Perhaps there is more there. I did not undo the sway bar links or tie rods to get complete freedom.

edit: took more measurements today. perhaps my guage was not perfectly flush against the rotor, as my meaaurements improved. also show 20 degree steering angle.

 

[odessa.filez]

Anyone out there running the TT arms with stock GTI springs? If so, can you adjust the ball joints out fully and not rub the outboard shock tower?

Recently bought a set of GTI springs, mainly for the rears, but wonder if the front springs fit with ball joints fully extended. It looks close!

 

[THEREALVRT]

i read all the pages and i am still a bit confused. can someone answer the following questions
How much camber adjustment do these arms/balljoints give?
How much does the caster change?
Are these arms longer ( wider track) than the gti arms?
thanks