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Audi club passing rules question

Cliff

Drag Racing Champion
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Cayman GTS
The ACNA rules state that cars that don't have turn signals use a point by to signal a pass. People who drive cars without turn signals at the track tend to be more advanced drivers. In the case of my next Audi club event at Spring Mountain, that is going to mostly mean Radicals, which will run with the instructor groups. They won't need to worry about getting passed by a Golf. Their main worry will be that I see their low to the ground car at the beginning of a passing zone and give them a signal to let them pass me.
 

R Golf

Go Kart Champion
Location
Lenox, MA
It's a new rule from national, and it applies to all run groups including instructors. It's no big deal, the car being passed signals to the side of the track they are moving, so they will signal right if being passed on the left.


Cliff, from what I'm reading in Audi NA info, I think the passing turn signal is towards the side that the passing car should go, not the direction of the car being passed. i.e. It should blink in the direction of off line. Unless I misunderstood, I think this is different from what you had stated. Not starting a debate, just want to be clear before I run with them.

Further from the Audi NA info: . The turn signal indicates the position/direction that the overtaking
car will pass.
 

Cliff

Drag Racing Champion
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Cayman GTS
Cliff, from what I'm reading in Audi NA info, I think the passing turn signal is towards the side that the passing car should go, not the direction of the car being passed. i.e. It should blink in the direction of off line. Unless I misunderstood, I think this is different from what you had stated. Not starting a debate, just want to be clear before I run with them.

Further from the Audi NA info: . The turn signal indicates the position/direction that the overtaking
car will pass.

I have instructed at 3 Audi club events under the new passing rules so I know precisely what they are. Below is the relevant text from a document that the chief driving instructor sent to the instructors before the November Sonoma Raceway event, the first that we did under the new rules.

Some of these may be overridden at the discretion of the chief driving instructor. For example, at the January event at Thunderhill all passing was to the left. The long straight between T13 and T14 is a passing zone. T14 is a right hander, which would suggest that the car being passed should move to the left, signal left, and let the overtaking car pass on the right. However, coming out of T13 is generally where faster cars want to pass and the momentum of the car being overtaken puts it on the right side of the track. So it makes sense to pass on the left there.

2.10.5. Let - by/Passing

Let-by/Passing areas and rules shall be clearly defined (in writing if possible) to event staff, all drivers, on-track and classroom instructors, students, and corner workers. These rules shall be strictly enforced.

Advanced student groups and Instructor groups may have additional passing areas as safety allows at the discretion of the Chapter. Instructors participating in any run group must comply with all passing rules applicable to that run group without exception.

A passing vehicle must receive a signal from EACH vehicle being overtaken. EACH vehicle allowing a pass must provide the signal to EACH overtaking vehicle. In groups where turn signals are used, the turn signal will remain on as long as the driver of the vehicle being overtaken wishes to be passed and can be passed in a safe manner.

It is strongly preferred that the passing vehicle goes offline to complete the pass. In general, offline is defined as the side of the track that is the direction of the next corner. Pass on the right if the next corner goes to the right. Pass on the left if the next corner goes to the left.

Let-by/Passing is ONLY allowed by a clearly defined signal from the driver of the car being overtaken. The turn signal (blinker) is used to signal the pass. The turn signal indicates the position/direction that the overtaken car will maintain. The driver of the car being overtaken is required to facilitate the pass by adjusting their speed and position if necessary.

Hand signals (point-by) may be used only in vehicles that do not have turn signals. The hand signal (point by) is given by the driver of the vehicle being overtaken pointing to the side that the passing vehicle should use to make the pass.

In the case where an improper signal that conflicts with established passing rules is displayed, the pass signal will be waved off and no pass will be executed. VIOLATIONS must be handled aggressively by event management, with offenders black-flagged and warned, perhaps deprived of track time, and if necessary, ejected from the event! Let-by/passing signals are an invitation to pass, but NOT a requirement. The pass must only be initiated if it can be completed safely within the designated area(s).

Let-by/passing protocols will become standardized for all ACNA HPDE events. It is recognized that exception situations may exist and the first priority responsibility of each Chapter Event Management Team is to run safe events
 

donefor

Go Kart Newbie
Location
usa
I have instructed at 3 Audi club events under the new passing rules so I know precisely what they are. Below is the relevant text from a document that the chief driving instructor sent to the instructors before the November Sonoma Raceway event, the first that we did under the new rules.

Some of these may be overridden at the discretion of the chief driving instructor. For example, at the January event at Thunderhill all passing was to the left. The long straight between T13 and T14 is a passing zone. T14 is a right hander, which would suggest that the car being passed should move to the left, signal left, and let the overtaking car pass on the right. However, coming out of T13 is generally where faster cars want to pass and the momentum of the car being overtaken puts it on the right side of the track. So it makes sense to pass on the left there.

2.10.5. Let - by/Passing

Let-by/Passing areas and rules shall be clearly defined (in writing if possible) to event staff, all drivers, on-track and classroom instructors, students, and corner workers. These rules shall be strictly enforced.

Advanced student groups and Instructor groups may have additional passing areas as safety allows at the discretion of the Chapter. Instructors participating in any run group must comply with all passing rules applicable to that run group without exception.

A passing vehicle must receive a signal from EACH vehicle being overtaken. EACH vehicle allowing a pass must provide the signal to EACH overtaking vehicle. In groups where turn signals are used, the turn signal will remain on as long as the driver of the vehicle being overtaken wishes to be passed and can be passed in a safe manner.

It is strongly preferred that the passing vehicle goes offline to complete the pass. In general, offline is defined as the side of the track that is the direction of the next corner. Pass on the right if the next corner goes to the right. Pass on the left if the next corner goes to the left.

Let-by/Passing is ONLY allowed by a clearly defined signal from the driver of the car being overtaken. The turn signal (blinker) is used to signal the pass. The turn signal indicates the position/direction that the overtaken car will maintain. The driver of the car being overtaken is required to facilitate the pass by adjusting their speed and position if necessary.

Hand signals (point-by) may be used only in vehicles that do not have turn signals. The hand signal (point by) is given by the driver of the vehicle being overtaken pointing to the side that the passing vehicle should use to make the pass.

In the case where an improper signal that conflicts with established passing rules is displayed, the pass signal will be waved off and no pass will be executed. VIOLATIONS must be handled aggressively by event management, with offenders black-flagged and warned, perhaps deprived of track time, and if necessary, ejected from the event! Let-by/passing signals are an invitation to pass, but NOT a requirement. The pass must only be initiated if it can be completed safely within the designated area(s).

Let-by/passing protocols will become standardized for all ACNA HPDE events. It is recognized that exception situations may exist and the first priority responsibility of each Chapter Event Management Team is to run safe events

So, let me get this straight:

1) A turn signal indicates the overtaken car side.
2) A point-by indicates the overtaking car side.

If this is correct, whoever is responsible for this obvious inconsistency should be tarred and feathered.
 

M3bs1

Go Kart Champion
Location
North Augusta SC
I’m OK with using turn signals, but I agree, the protocol should be standardized between the various organizations, whichever way they decide to go. I won’t miss dealing with the 130 mph wind chill on the back straight of VIR when it is 17 degrees....
 

Cliff

Drag Racing Champion
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Cayman GTS
ACNA hand signal rules are consistent with what other organizations do. The new rules create a national standard across all ACNA chapters. Personally, I prefer using hand signals but if they say that turn signals are the way to signal a pass, then fine.

Prior to this, the California chapters would use turn signals for the beginner and lower intermediate groups, and hand signals for upper intermediate, advanced, and instructor groups. If I travelled to a Northwest chapter event, they would use turn signals for all groups. The car being passed had to signal to the side of the track they would occupy, and the passing car also had to signal, to the side of the track they would take when making the pass. Simplifying to one set of rules is a welcome change.

What do other organizations do when the windows are up because of heavy rain?
 

Crild

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Florida
ACNA hand signal rules are consistent with what other organizations do. The new rules create a national standard across all ACNA chapters. Personally, I prefer using hand signals but if they say that turn signals are the way to signal a pass, then fine.



Prior to this, the California chapters would use turn signals for the beginner and lower intermediate groups, and hand signals for upper intermediate, advanced, and instructor groups. If I travelled to a Northwest chapter event, they would use turn signals for all groups. The car being passed had to signal to the side of the track they would occupy, and the passing car also had to signal, to the side of the track they would take when making the pass. Simplifying to one set of rules is a welcome change.



What do other organizations do when the windows are up because of heavy rain?
Windows down all the time even if it's raining.
 

R Golf

Go Kart Champion
Location
Lenox, MA
This, unfortunately.

The groups I have run with in the Southeast that allowed use of turn signals did just the opposite. Signal to the side for the pass to occur.

That's what the Audi literature that they referenced with sign up on the east coast says. Very, very odd that it is opposite of what they sent to instructors, at least on west coast. I 100% believe Cliff's instructor info, but it is reverse of what they sent out for their Summit Point event.

Quoting from Audi Potomac-Chesapeake region club literature referencing Audi NA 2019 update:

"Let-by/Passing is ONLY allowed by clearly defined signal from the driver of the car being overtaken. The turn signal (blinker) is used to signal the pass. The turn signal indicates the position/direction that the overtaking car will pass."



 

R Golf

Go Kart Champion
Location
Lenox, MA
What do other organizations do when the windows are up because of heavy rain?


Everyone I've run with has windows down rain or shine. Really tough in heavy rain, which is one more reason why I avoid running in it.


As I understand it, the windows down rule is for safety/extraction and not specifically for passing rules.
 

Cliff

Drag Racing Champion
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
2015 Cayman GTS
Everyone I've run with has windows down rain or shine. Really tough in heavy rain, which is one more reason why I avoid running in it.


As I understand it, the windows down rule is for safety/extraction and not specifically for passing rules.

No, it has nothing to do with passing. I've only done one event when it was raining hard enough for the club to let us run with our windows up, but it was coming down pretty hard (youtube link). It's tough to do hand signals when the windows are closed which is why I wondered.
 

R Golf

Go Kart Champion
Location
Lenox, MA
No, it has nothing to do with passing. I've only done one event when it was raining hard enough for the club to let us run with our windows up, but it was coming down pretty hard (youtube link). It's tough to do hand signals when the windows are closed which is why I wondered.


Now THAT is running in the rain. I've had events cancelled with less rain than that, although the track had standing puddles which was the big problem.

Definitely a "windows up" situation.
 

TechGuy32

Ready to race!
Location
My Place
Even though rain is a bummer for DE events I enjoy teaching in the rain because drivers can learn car control at the limit at much reduced speeds. This gives them time to react. The rivers running across some tracks can be diabolical however as I watched a Porsche 944 T in front of me lose it on a straight at Mid-Ohio, spin 360 and stop a foot from a concrete barrier.
 

R Golf

Go Kart Champion
Location
Lenox, MA
Even though rain is a bummer for DE events I enjoy teaching in the rain because drivers can learn car control at the limit at much reduced speeds. This gives them time to react. The rivers running across some tracks can be diabolical however as I watched a Porsche 944 T in front of me lose it on a straight at Mid-Ohio, spin 360 and stop a foot from a concrete barrier.


I understand that, but I'm a dry track fan. Certainly different strokes, which is fine.

Both during the years I was instructing and now running myself I never enjoyed wet tracks that much. I'll run in the wet if not pouring, but don't have a terrific time. The biggest issue for me is not handling the track but that the runoff is often slippery as ice. So, if you go even two wheels off in spots the car just doesn't stop until it hits something. You need to keep students well back from the limits, so I'm not certain they learn nearly as much vs. a good dry track.
 

TechGuy32

Ready to race!
Location
My Place
My students seem to be very happy learning at slower speeds in the rain. Everyone is different. Since you can't change the weather you might as well use it to your advantage. It's similar to wet skid pad testing. You don't need a lot of speed on a wet track to learn car control. The rivulets across the track are a problem on some circuits as well as the sealer like used at Mid-Ohio.
 
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