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APR Intake Heat Soak

RedHotVAG

Ready to race!
Location
Toronto, Canada
When I was at the mechanics, they logged my IATs when they test drove it and got 64C/147F, I have the APR Carbon Fiber intake. A buddy from our car meet has the stock intake and he's logging 46C IAT, 114.8F, he has the stock airbox. Outside ambient temperature 30C / 85F

We took a look at the deisgn of the APR Carbon Fiber Intake and found that its bullshit. There's no air directly reaching the opening of the intake, which is entirely blocked by the hood. There is also no air coming from the grill either as it is blocked off by a piece of plastic. So basically, it draws air from the engine bay, completely unlike the diagram on the APR website, there is absolutely no ram air effect at all.

So basically, I might just go back to stock intake for the summer. As the 64C IAT is probably triggering a failsafe and I am getting major timing pull / boost reduction. Full throttle is slower than half throttle. The buddy with the stock intake, he has Eurodyne Stage 2 withdownpipe. He experiences no timing pulls.
 

Baldilocks73

Go Kart Champion
Location
Delaware, U.S.A.
Car(s)
2015 Golf R
It's already been tested and discussed several times that there are no benefits (and you can actually lose a few horsepower and some torque) with aftermarket intakes.
 

PRND[S]

The Lame & The Ludicrous
Location
Southern California
Car(s)
'15 LSG Golf R
I would think the difference in IAT would be negligible in a moving vehicle since the air is coming from outside the engine bay and spending little time in the intake. It does really heat up until it gets compressed by the turbo, and whether it was a degree or two hotter pre-turbo won't really make a difference post-turbo.

I suspect something else is at play if there was such a drastic difference. Are the two cars identical in every way except for the intake?
 

toledospeed

Go Kart Champion
Location
3rd rock
Been reading that some boost taps are causing false high IAT readings. Do you have one?
 

RedHotVAG

Ready to race!
Location
Toronto, Canada
Been reading that some boost taps are causing false high IAT readings. Do you have one?
I don't have a boost tap and I believe the IAT was logged with VCDS on a drive not standstill. If you read the first post carefully, after examination it looks like the air that goes in the APR intake isn't actually from outside the car, it's for the inside. Hot engine bay air.

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toledospeed

Go Kart Champion
Location
3rd rock
I don't have a boost tap and I believe the IAT was logged with VCDS on a drive not standstill. If you read the first post carefully, after examination it looks like the air that goes in the APR intake isn't actually from outside the car, it's for the inside. Hot engine bay air.

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Yeah, I did read that, but don't think it sounds correct though. It appears to use the same inlet as the stock air box right? Airflow enters on the left side of the grill and feeds the right side via a channel that leads to the inlet that feeds the intake. If it doesn't, that would be really silly. Are you sure you are looking at it right?
 

Sandman GTI

Drag Race Newbie
Location
Tennessee USA
Yeah, I did read that, but don't think it sounds correct though. It appears to use the same inlet as the stock air box right? Airflow enters on the left side of the grill and feeds the right side via a channel that leads to the inlet that feeds the intake. If it doesn't, that would be really silly. Are you sure you are looking at it right?

I do not have APR intake but I think like this member.
Any pics of your intake set up so we can look at same thing?
 

BravoMike

Go Kart Champion
Location
Indianapolis
I agree with the OP here. Unless you modify the grill to have slits like it does on the right side, I don't see how this is an effective design. Much like their claim of laminar airflow because of a rough pipe (which I initially bought into), I believe this too is BS.

I think one could get similar gains (small ones at that) by modifying the stock parts. The cost of replacing those parts for when you sell the car, or if you screw up is much less than $475.
 

toledospeed

Go Kart Champion
Location
3rd rock
I agree with the OP here. Unless you modify the grill to have slits like it does on the right side, I don't see how this is an effective design. Much like their claim of laminar airflow because of a rough pipe (which I initially bought into), I believe this too is BS.

I think one could get similar gains (small ones at that) by modifying the stock parts. The cost of replacing those parts for when you sell the car, or if you screw up is much less than $475.

The OP is also claiming that his buddy's stock airbox has cooler IATs in the same conditions (maybe they are?). The APR intake appears to use the same inlet as stock. If stock works much better, then how is the design different or bad per se? Something is not adding up. The stock design is good enough for the Golf R. I believe GTI intake tract is the same design. APR should flow and IATs would be about the same you would think, unless it holds more heat somehow?
 

roy2535

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Hong Kong
What would be considered normal for IAT? Is it calculated as a fixed number above ambient temp? At what temp does heat soak starts to be a factor?

I normally see IAT of 20C/140F, ambient temp is around 30C/86C.
 

dwvw

Go Kart Newbie
I have the APR intake and I get good IAT's. I haven't seen 30 degrees yet with my P3 gauge in, but at 25Celsius ambient I get IAT's around 35-40 driving around at 50-70 km/h. SO something else is wrong.
 

BravoMike

Go Kart Champion
Location
Indianapolis
The OP is also claiming that his buddy's stock airbox has cooler IATs in the same conditions (maybe they are?). The APR intake appears to use the same inlet as stock. If stock works much better, then how is the design different or bad per se? Something is not adding up. The stock design is good enough for the Golf R. I believe GTI intake tract is the same design. APR should flow and IATs would be about the same you would think, unless it holds more heat somehow?

TL;DR, I don't think APR's intake works as advertised and I think their claims are based on half truths and some BS. This is supposedly a company that takes pride in their R&D. For anyone who cares to know why the way I think, continue reading.

I can't explain why the OP's temps are that much higher, but I would say that wouldn't surprise me if the temps were at least as high as the stock intake. The reason why I say that is because by the looks of the location, the APR intake appears receiving mixed hot & cold air all the time. Even when the car is moving. I agree with the OP that their claim of "Intake Air Temperature Management" and "improving the pressure ratio" is complete BS. The picture and description on their website leads you to believe that there is a ram air effect, which there is absolutely none.

The APR intake is not taking the air from the same location because the stock setup routes the air from the grill that has slits to bring in fresh air. That being said, the engine compartment is a low pressure area and the bottom of the car is a high pressure area relative to the engine compartment and air moves from high to low. The question becomes, does the APR intake bring in more fresh air or more hot air from the engine compartment? The intake because of it sucking air in, is also by nature a low pressure area. I would guess that it may even be lower than the bottom of the car, thus sucking in all of the hot air. Also notice the stock air intake on the right side where the slits are in the grill. Stick your hand in there and feel what VW engineers did. In my opinion it is quite clever that they angle that plastic downwards. This (counterintuitively) creates an eddy which turns the airflow upwards into the ducting to the intake. This downward turned piece of plastic may also help create an even lower pressure to help suck in more air by way of venturi effect. It is quite apparent to me that VW has thought this through and that they intended to take in cold air from those holes in the top of the grill.

Yes, I realize that the back (towards the engine) of the intake ducting is open and no, I don't know exactly why VW decided to do this. I have a few theories. One is so the intake doesn't ingest foreign objects, such as rain. Two, maybe to reduce the amount of induction noise. Lastly, if the openings on top of the grill get clogged or so the airflow while the car is standing still is sufficient. I would guess that the majority of air that enters the stock intake while it is in motion comes from the openings above the grill.

The picture showing the low pressure vs high pressure appears to be misrepresenting what is happening. Ram air pressure is dynamic pressure, but the pressure in the stream of air is measured as static air pressure. The higher the velocity of air, the lower the static air pressure. Keep in mind that air moves from high to low pressure and that high and low are relative to each other. The air that is entering the intake should be labeled "Lowest Pressure".

Any smoker can attest to this because they have seen it in action when driving down the interstate. Crack a window open and watch where the smoke goes when you exhale. Out the window that has air rushing past it right?

For what its worth, I haven't seen a design yet that appears to be worthwhile to purchase. I could see how modifying the stock grill to have openings on the drivers side and either using the APR intake or opening up the intake on the stock ducting may give some gains on lower IATs or relief on airflow to the turbo. How much we don't know until people do some more 3rd party testing. I will also say that the less you "bend" the air, the more efficient the flow should be. APR has the upper hand there, but I think there needs to be a way of it bringing air in from the top of the grill.

[url]https://www.goapr.com/products/intake_ea888_gen3_mqb.html[/URL]
 
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BravoMike

Go Kart Champion
Location
Indianapolis
Totora, would you mind taking IAT logs through VCDS after your engine has warmed up and while driving with both the APR intake and the stock intake installed? I think it would be interesting to see the differences of IATs.
 

RedHotVAG

Ready to race!
Location
Toronto, Canada
Totora, would you mind taking IAT logs through VCDS after your engine has warmed up and while driving with both the APR intake and the stock intake installed? I think it would be interesting to see the differences of IATs.
I myself don't have VCDS. I do have JB logging and need to purchase a laptop first. Anyone know of JB logging logs IAT? I will also snap some pictures later today to illustrate the absurdity of their design.

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toledospeed

Go Kart Champion
Location
3rd rock
TL;DR, I don't think APR's intake works as advertised and I think their claims are based on half truths and some BS. This is supposedly a company that takes pride in their R&D. For anyone who cares to know why the way I think, continue reading.

I can't explain why the OP's temps are that much higher, but I would say that wouldn't surprise me if the temps were at least as high as the stock intake. The reason why I say that is because by the looks of the location, the APR intake appears receiving mixed hot & cold air all the time. Even when the car is moving. I agree with the OP that their claim of "Intake Air Temperature Management" and "improving the pressure ratio" is complete BS. The picture and description on their website leads you to believe that there is a ram air effect, which there is absolutely none.

The APR intake is not taking the air from the same location because the stock setup routes the air from the grill that has slits to bring in fresh air. That being said, the engine compartment is a low pressure area and the bottom of the car is a high pressure area relative to the engine compartment and air moves from high to low. The question becomes, does the APR intake bring in more fresh air or more hot air from the engine compartment? The intake because of it sucking air in, is also by nature a low pressure area. I would guess that it may even be lower than the bottom of the car, thus sucking in all of the hot air. Also notice the stock air intake on the right side where the slits are in the grill. Stick your hand in there and feel what VW engineers did. In my opinion it is quite clever that they angle that plastic downwards. This (counterintuitively) creates an eddy which turns the airflow upwards into the ducting to the intake. This downward turned piece of plastic may also help create an even lower pressure to help suck in more air by way of venturi effect. It is quite apparent to me that VW has thought this through and that they intended to take in cold air from those holes in the top of the grill.

Yes, I realize that the back (towards the engine) of the intake ducting is open and no, I don't know exactly why VW decided to do this. I have a few theories. One is so the intake doesn't ingest foreign objects, such as rain. Two, maybe to reduce the amount of induction noise. Lastly, if the openings on top of the grill get clogged or so the airflow while the car is standing still is sufficient. I would guess that the majority of air that enters the stock intake while it is in motion comes from the openings above the grill.

The picture showing the low pressure vs high pressure appears to be misrepresenting what is happening. Ram air pressure is dynamic pressure, but the pressure in the stream of air is measured as static air pressure. The higher the velocity of air, the lower the static air pressure. Keep in mind that air moves from high to low pressure and that high and low are relative to each other. The air that is entering the intake should be labeled "Lowest Pressure".

Any smoker can attest to this because they have seen it in action when driving down the interstate. Crack a window open and watch where the smoke goes when you exhale. Out the window that has air rushing past it right?

For what its worth, I haven't seen a design yet that appears to be worthwhile to purchase. I could see how modifying the stock grill to have openings on the drivers side and either using the APR intake or opening up the intake on the stock ducting may give some gains on lower IATs or relief on airflow to the turbo. How much we don't know until people do some more 3rd party testing. I will also say that the less you "bend" the air, the more efficient the flow should be. APR has the upper hand there, but I think there needs to be a way of it bringing air in from the top of the grill.

[url]https://www.goapr.com/products/intake_ea888_gen3_mqb.html[/URL]

Marketing is just that, marketing. They show an Audi in one of the pics, so who knows what they claim and what models it applies to. VW's engineering team could also market their stock intake design and it would sound great to the masses as well. You could paint the stock intake red and resell it, LOL. We have discussed this ad nauseum in other posts and many of us don't see the point in the aftermarket intakes for a lot of different reasons.

However, in this discussion I am still confused over what you guys are talking about, so please help me out. I am just trying to understand what you mean when you say "The APR intake is not taking the air from the same location".

I do not have the APR intake and have not seen it in person, so I am not arguing that it does or doesn't promote higher IAT's as compared to stock (or that it does anything that they are marketing). Below is the APR intake. It appears to be closed and only have one inlet for air. I am assuming this is the stock air inlet location because it is exactly the same shape and bolts up to the stock inlet in the pic. It should be sealed to the stock air inlet. Am I not correct about this? After we can agree on this simple point, then we can discuss the further theories about how it would flow and behave relative to the stock air-box. We may agree, but you are jumping ahead with the above claim and I am not following because it doesn't make sense to me.





 
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