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Any is20 guys with dragy?

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tigeo

Autocross Champion
The experts over on the Dragy 2.0 thread said slope will have no effect on times or trap speeds.
I will say that I had the slight downward slope and had a good tail wind....plus it was 37 deg (by my car's thermos)...all the things came together this morning. Interestingly enough, I had a torque limit in first that I get sometimes (not traction related....shows up on the pre-ign counter) but that didn't seem to hurt me...just my 60' time.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Time to switch to APR boss. Your car would be so much faster on the 100 program with E30.
I understand but....out. Really like the no-bs just drive it I get with my Unitronic tune. No drama with fuel etc. I can't even get E near my house. If APR tightened up and had flash-at home MAYBE I would buy the tune to have when I wanted it. But for now, a ~4.5 sec 0-60 on pump gas car is plenty to hurt feelings and have a great/reliable DD. If this IS20 ever goes, I'll go to the IS38 with the Uni tune for sure.
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
BTW, the APR 100 program also runs half a point to a point leaner AFR so it lets you run more E before maxing out the HPFP. That’s another advantage.
You do realize that you shouldn't be running leaner on an ethanol blend though. So whatever you run on 93, you should be running at least a full point richer for e50. Stoich afr for gasoline is 14.7:1 and e85 is like 9.7.
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
You almost always want to target a leaner lambda on alcohol vs gasoline. I’m not talking about the AFR being higher on E85 than gasoline since as you pointed out stoich is 9.7 for E85.
No you don't. Plus the lambda is based on the fuel the tune is for. So on gasoline. The lambda is based on 14.7:1 being stoich. So if you run 12.5:1, your lambda is .85. A lambda of 1 is stoich. So for e85, stoich is 9.7:1. To get a lambda of 1, you would need an afr of 9.7:1. If you are running 12.5:1, your lambda is 1.288 and you are lean. Alcohol does not like to run leaner. You still target a lambda of 1 as stoich, but that has to be calculated on the proper afr for the fuel. You most likely need to be at least 12:1 afr for e50. I would have to break it down better to calculate, but your lamba for that tune is based on gasoline
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
Every car I’ve ever owned that has run on E85 has always ran a leaner lambda than on gasoline. Generally speaking you want to be leaner on ethanol compared to gasoline. Same thing with the race gas tunes. They run a little leaner.
The lambda is 100% based on the stoich afr the tune is set for though. So if this tune is based on gasoline. The lambda is set based on 14.7:1. If it were e85, the lambda would be based on 9.7:1. So how rich the lambda is doesn't mean anything. For e50, you would need to base the lambda on 11.5-12:1 for stoich. So if you wanted a lambda of .89, you would see an afr of around 9.5-10.0:1. So leaner or richer lambda doesn't mean anything if it is not set based on the stoich of the fuel you are using
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
Right, but regardless of what fuel you're running, a higher lambda will always be leaner with all else equal, no?
Yes, but the lambda value is always based on a stoich number. So to calculate your correct lambda, you have to find the stoich of the fuel you are running. You then divide your afr by the stoich value. A lambda of 1 is stoich. Anything overr1 is lean. Dangerously lean. Typically on any tune, stoich is lean. So your lambda on alcohol should still be lower than 1.
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
Yes, I get that. But again, your lambda will typically be leaner on ethanol than gasoline. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

But the point I was trying to make is he’ll be able to run more ethanol before maxing out his HPFP with the APR Stage 2 100 file vs his Unitronic Stage 2 93 file.
Not sure about that. He is running the same pump. Ethanol requires more fuel. Either way, unless you are tunes for ethanol, you ar running way too lean. Lambda doesn't mean shit unless the tune is for that exact fuel. So going on about the lambda is pointless. Your lambda is based on a 14.7 stoich. And that is that
 

TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
I still don’t think you follow. The APR Stage 2 100 octane tune runs leaner than his Unitronic Stage 2 93 octane tune. If he were to log his HPFP with each tune, it would be lower on any kind of fuel you put in the car with the APR tune: E10, E30, E85, E100 etc. So he’ll be able to run more ethanol before maxing out his HPFP.
But leaner is not good when you are using ethanol on a tune for gasoline. You need it to be way richer. You need to run a lot more ethanol vs gas. So it the tune being leaner means it is more dangerous
 

ZuMBLe

Autocross Champion
Location
NY
Car(s)
Alltrack 6MT
But leaner is not good when you are using ethanol on a tune for gasoline. You need it to be way richer. You need to run a lot more ethanol vs gas. So it the tune being leaner means it is more dangerous

The ECU sees lambda and targets lambda, not gasoline AFR. The JB4 represents the lambda value in a gasoline AFR value. When my fueling table calls for .83 lambda the ECU will target 12.2:1 afr on gasoline. When I throw in E30 and let the ECU adjust, it will still target .83 lambda, but it will require a lot more fuel to reach it. The JB4 will still tell me the AFR is 12.2:1 though. That's not to say the car is running leaner than stoich though, it's a "gauge issue". That's why the fuel pumps shed tears when E30 is introduced.
 

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TwinDad

Autocross Newbie
Location
Fort Lee, NJ
The ECU sees lambda and targets lambda, not gasoline AFR. The JB4 represents the lambda value in a gasoline AFR value. When my fueling table calls for .83 lambda the ECU will target 12.2:1 afr on gasoline. When I throw in E30 and let the ECU adjust, it will still target .83 lambda, but it will require a lot more fuel to reach it. The JB4 will still tell me the AFR is 12.2:1 though. That's not to say the car is running leaner than stoich though, it's a "gauge issue". That's why the fuel pumps shed tears when E30 is introduced.
He's not using a jb4 and he can view his actual afr. While the factory ecu adjusts some, there is no ethanol sensor. Plus, you do not know how much the APR tune can adjust. Maybe e30 is ok. He has been running e50
 

ZuMBLe

Autocross Champion
Location
NY
Car(s)
Alltrack 6MT
He's not using a jb4 and he can view his actual afr. While the factory ecu adjusts some, there is no ethanol sensor. Plus, you do not know how much the APR tune can adjust. Maybe e30 is ok. He has been running e50

I know his boost levels are higher than mine (I'm not about that 27psi life anymore) and at E25 to E30ish, at peak boost and turbo efficiency, I'm not hitting requested pressure anymore. I'm not sure where it becomes a problem, but it's a trend towards a problem for sure. His boost numbers are also likely at high IATs than me (he's in florida?) so oxygen density may be less. I'm sure it's his APR logging software that's translating lambda to gasoline AFR like the JB4 does. This is probably just to dumb down the interface. I'm almost positive the ECU deals in lambda.
 
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MeltedSolid

Autocross Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
'15 Golf, e36 328i
02 sensors can only measure lambda, they can't directly measure AFR, it's just back calculated. However, there's no reason a car on ethanol should have a lambda any different than a car on gasoline. Technically, by running leaner lambda you would be able to squeeze more power out of the same amount of fueling, or run more ethanol, but I wouldn't call it smart...
 

MeltedSolid

Autocross Newbie
Location
San Francisco Bay Area
Car(s)
'15 Golf, e36 328i

tigeo

Autocross Champion
60-100 in 5.60 last night in 72F temps.

I really don’t understand why this car is so fast for what it has. ?

View attachment 163357
No mystery to me - that APR 100 tune is beast mode, period. And since it seems nobody runs it, it looks even that much more crazy. The comparison (in general) is against standard APR/Unitronic St2 IS20 tunes for 91/93 that most folks are running. I'd like to see your numbers on the 93 tune to see how much you'd lose which would really put the tune in perspective. The OE vs. aftermarket hardware isn't as critical to the performance as you've shown.
 
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