50k miles valve cleaning exploration time

[Oldschoolmk7]

I would spray into the TB...I wouldn't want that shit going through the turbo and IC.

It says it will clean turbo blades. Lol. Yeah it is definitely taking the long path to the intake valves. We will see how Rogue’s testing goes.

 

[RogueGTI]

So my working theory and solution here is to vent to exhaust(basically atmosphere as far as emissions are concerned), and or use a good PCV cooler/condenser before allowing PCV gases into the intake. Then, occasionally use this CRC solvent for preventative gunk removal as needed (I'm hoping I can figure out a way to get a "borescope" to the intake valves without too much trouble). CRC could potentially also be used in place of media blasting, for direct cleaning.

I'd like to get the CRC injected as close to the valves as possible, so yes right before the throttle seems good. Ideally there would be direct ports in the manifold to inject this stuff right onto the valves - perhaps such service ports could be installed on the intake manifold.

I really wonder what the properties of this stuff are - I'm guessing it's highly volatile and will eventually vaporize and be combusted or expelled. However, if it were super volatile (think acetone), it wouldn't stay around in the intake long enough to soak the carbon for the hour that CRC suggests.

The outstanding concern with solvent seems to be letting it get down the cylinder walls, potentially causing some kind of related problem. For large carbon buildup, i agree there's a risk of material chunks breaking off and hitting the turbo. So, preventative treatment is definitely the way to go

PS: as far any near term testing I might do, I would hope to characterize the behavior of the CRC chemical(which appears to be patented), verify it's ability to dissolve carbon coking on a test sample, and perhaps see if I can "borescope" my valves. Assuming the chemical does in fact dissolve deposits well, then the rest of my testing will mostly be long term observation, which will take months and years to accumulate miles. My GTI currently is not my daily driver, either. If I set up a PCV cooler/condenser, I'll report on its effectiveness.

 

[rahtx]

Ideally there would be direct ports in the manifold to inject this stuff right onto the valves - perhaps such service ports could be installed on the intake manifold.

That's exactly what this guy does - he uses his boost tap instead of going down the air intake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kpiRESTS4k

 

[TDI Matt]

The chance of that making it to cylinder 1 is slim compared to #4 but it may work.

I was thinking about going in at the map sensor on the throttle pipe.

 

[RogueGTI]

Yea, good find. There's actually a ton of good YouTube video discussion going on about this, plus tons of great discussion in the comments. Curious why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit already...

Agreed, my first thought was he's not going to hit all ports very well using only that boost tap location.

So these are plastic intake manifolds??? Hah. If they're aluminum, I'd think it would be easy to install bungs for valve borescope inspection, plus access to administer solvent right to the runners/valves...

I think the eventual long term design solution is dual port and direct injection. Not sure throttle body injection would suffice. I think water injection would not be terribly effective. Great for steam cleaning of combustion chambers, but oil and water don't mix.

 

[erikweber321]

Just throwing this out there - plenty of people are using hydrogen converters permanently installed in their engine bays to just feed a light stream of hydrogen. Gotta keep it filled with water. Hydrogen gas is highly active and if you keep a system in a car from day 1, your turbo, intake, cylinder and exhausts will all be basically pristine forever....I'm looking into this myself.

 

[RogueGTI]

Thanks for explaining the basic idea. Unfortunately, "HHO generators" look, walk, and quack like snake oil, in the sense it is hard to find any meaningful, concrete info about them, that isn't completely diluted with hype. That's usually where my BS meter pegs off scale high. Just a simple explanation of the idea, as you just described, was really hard to find in the haystack of nonsense. The level of nonsense regarding "browns gas" and such approaches flat earth entertainment levels, with people claiming it solves just about any problem and even creates free energy.

Yes, hydrogen is pretty reactive I'm sure. I'm not so sure it will just "magically" react with carbon and hydrocarbon if injected into the intake. I'm curious though.

 

[The Fed]

I don't know about injecting extra fuel without additional oxygen.

 

[RogueGTI]

That's the funny thing. These "HHO" cleaners are generally just injecting water that's been split into its constituent chemicals, elemental hydrogen and oxygen, and in perfect stoichiometric balance. So when it goes into the engine, it is just burned again to make water. How this has any effect on carbon deposits, especially hard coking in the intake, I cannot imagine. The one thing you can say is, hydrogen burns very clean, and if you run the engine on pure hydrogen gas for an extended period, the carbon deposits will eventually be slowly combusted away, since they are not being replenished by dirtier-burning fuel like gasoline. By "extended period" I'm talking hundreds of miles, not "40 minutes."

I just spent half an hour seeking any meaningful evidence on the internet about hydrogen carbon deposit cleaning. Found almost nothing! Mostly promotional videos and anecdotes, with only a couple critical comments at pistonheads which indicated it does nothing. Very little objective evidence, not even before/after visual inspections or anything. Most "reviews" are people saying they think their throttle response is a bit better... Far as I'm concerned, snake oil, bubkiss.

EDIT: good discussion here that shows the two sides:

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/377984-engine-carbon-cleaning-review/

I honestly imagine the most likely truth is that the OP is a fraud, making false claims, including the dyno.

This discussion is funny, with the final comments by the "professional engineer" at the end there. I'm a mechanical engineer btw:

https://www.scoobynet.com/general-technical-10/1019562-bull-or-not-hydrogen-cleaning.html

I like how he goes on and.on with lots of random tips, with little supporting argument for hho benefits, then basically concludes that HHO treatment is a legit service. Where's the roll eyes emoticon...? Actually, he does stipulate that the intake won't be effected. I missed that on a first reading. Still, makes HHO sound like a super solution... I doubt it does much that water induction wouldn't, and much more safely at that.

 

[ATR]

intervals were on the 5k, but there were two intervals I went to 10k like an a-hole (factory recommendation is WRONG)

recent shop experts have called me a dick head for not being on the 3. I'm going to be doing it on the 3 for the rest of its life.

Good old old schoolers...
Without a oil analysis you will not be able to tell one way or another.

I've been doing changes every 7.5k miles since all the research I've done points to 10k miles being just fine for those that don't thrash on their cars.

If you're hard on your car (several Italian tune UPS on every trip) bump it down to 7500. If you regularly take the car to track events then 5k or so. If it's a track only car change it more often than that.

Again, get a oil analysis to know for sure.

None of that catch can crap has been shown to do anything on our engines. Waste of time and money to try to improve upon the already excellent oil separator in the factory system, unless you have a track rat.

This is not the result of PCV, it's coming up from the cylinder directly.

Almost all modern VVT engines use valve overlap at idle to act as an EGR valve. The automakers are intentionally making the cars shit where they eat, and i think this is a significant factor.

VWR has one of the best oil catch cans available. Though not for the reason that you would generally buy one. With a stage 1 or higher car it becomes necessary to pick one up. If you track the car (especially road course tracks) it's mandatory to have it.

Reason why:
The VWR Oil Catch Can System also takes the track & motorsport experience of these engines to correct the problem of oil build-up in the top of the engine during high-G braking.

 

[erikweber321]

I'm not very put off by the hydrogen treatment. I'm really interested in doing one right now, immediately post-walnut blast, to see if it is capable of getting rid of "the rest". If it can do it during a 60 min feed treatment, I'd be very interested

 

[RogueGTI]

I acquired a bottle of the CRC valve cleaner. I also have some seafoam, and brake cleaner (primarily acetone). Ill attempt some comparisons of their solvent ability, hopefully this week, but things are pretty busy as is.

I did take a look at my intake manifold. The throttle body seems a pain to get access to. There is a sensor above the #3 runner, MAP i guess, or maybe air temp. That seems a potentially good inspection port, as well as location to introduce cleaner, but access to all runners would be tricky for either operation.

There is a barbed fitting adjacent to the #4 runner, the same one that video shows being used as a boost sensor tap. It is hard to tell without having a manifold in my hand, but that may potentially make a good way to introduce solvent, by using injector hose of specific lengths (to span to the individual runners).

More interesting, I see there are port fuel injector mounting blanks in the manifold molding. Seems it would be pretty easy to install some type of pressure tight access bung/port right there, perfectly sized for an endoscopic camera, and injection of cleaning solvent directly to the valves.

As for prevention, im definitely leaning toward "vent to atmosphere" for at least a period long enough to see what the effect is on carbon buildup.

 

[RogueGTI]

I'm not very put off by the hydrogen treatment. I'm really interested in doing one right now, immediately post-walnut blast, to see if it is capable of getting rid of "the rest". If it can do it during a 60 min feed treatment, I'd be very interested

Please do take before and after images and report back.

 

[GroceryGTIer]

I acquired a bottle of the CRC valve cleaner. I also have some seafoam, and brake cleaner (primarily acetone). Ill attempt some comparisons of their solvent ability, hopefully this week, but things are pretty busy as is.

I did take a look at my intake manifold. The throttle body seems a pain to get access to. There is a sensor above the #3 runner, MAP i guess, or maybe air temp. That seems a potentially good inspection port, as well as location to introduce cleaner, but access to all runners would be tricky for either operation.

There is a barbed fitting adjacent to the #4 runner, the same one that video shows being used as a boost sensor tap. It is hard to tell without having a manifold in my hand, but that may potentially make a good way to introduce solvent, by using injector hose of specific lengths (to span to the individual runners).

More interesting, I see there are port fuel injector mounting blanks in the manifold molding. Seems it would be pretty easy to install some type of pressure tight access bung/port right there, perfectly sized for an endoscopic camera, and injection of cleaning solvent directly to the valves.

As for prevention, im definitely leaning toward "vent to atmosphere" for at least a period long enough to see what the effect is on carbon buildup.

Chemtool turned my car on on the valves to mush in about 30-45 minutes. Not all of it, but better that some cleanings over seen.

 

[RogueGTI]

Berrymans B12? I think i may have some of that, hmm...