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22mm SuperPro Rear Sway Bar - The Conservative Approach

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
Given that the front suspension components on my ‘19 GTI are SuperPro fixed Camber Strut Tops, SuperPro Lower Control Arms and SuperPro Adjustable End Links (the end links alone are not such an impact on dynamics since the factory fsb is still there- but they are consistent in brand!) , I decided to go ahead, consistent with brand and try the relatively small, conservative 22mm SuperPro Rear Sway Bar and Endlinks. They came nicely packaged together in an affordable, bundled kit.

I did have to lower the exhaust a bit and I used Jake’s method of supporting the car on stands and lifting each tire with a jack to get the holes to line up for ease of installation when passing bolts through. Greased everything. Set the bar on Firm setting.

First impressions are that the rear is indeed more alive.

So why the conservative approach? Turn 1 at Sebring and Turn 10 at Homestead are unforgiving for Lift Throttle Oversteer mistakes! This slight upgrade is just what I was looking for.
 

Attachments

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SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
Let us know how you like it on the track and how exactly it changes the handling.
Will do!
I have Homestead coming up in a few weeks.

This car is a daily driver/ with occasional track day as an agenda. It’s still on stock dampers and springs. Overall, the SuperPro stuff has offered a decent improvement over factory handling without compromising comfort!
 

acorazza

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
NYC
I have the full Superpro set up (RSB, FSB, LCA’s and endlinks front and rear) too except the top mounts. No track work as it just a daily but I have been very happy with the differences in handling. Even with DCC in sport, I felt like the car had too much body roll but it is much more controlled with the upgraded stiffness, even with the DCC on normal or comfort.
 

GTI Jake

Drag Racing Champion
Location
Charlotte, NC
Awesome, glad my diy video was helpful!

It’s all about having fun and a confidence inspiring mod is definitely a fun one on track.

I haven’t got to track test my RSB on the opposite end of the spectrum yet, but from my impression on the street I feel like while it’s can definitely induce oversteer it does so in a very smooth and controlled manner. All about preference!
 

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
During the morning commute I was able to toss the car around a bit more.

Before the RSB install, the overall feel was of a quick turn in response, with nothing else except throttle modulation to avoid the inevitable understeer through apex and track out.

Now with the RSB, initial turn in is slightly muted and feels more slightly biased towards Understeer, yet once committed to the apex, the car is overall more neutral and the rear comes around and begins to communicate, with a tendency towards Oversteer at apex and track out. This characteristic did not exist before the RSB swap.....
.....Makes the car feel like it has all 4 wheels giving feedback as opposed to the front wheels simply pulling the rear wheels along.
 
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sloopercat

New member
Location
Knoxville
Savage geese review describes an under steering handling quirk. Does this describe what you are experiencing also? Curious if any other methods from the VagCom or OBD11 tweaks tune out this behavior. It seems a bit disconcerting. Understeer is a bit dangerous, snap oversteer as well. It sounds like a stiffer bar or some electronic tweaks are what is needed. I just picked up my GTI and will play around until I find the balance I want. I purchased the Eibach 25mm bar in hopes it would tune out that understeer completely.
 

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
Savage geese review describes an under steering handling quirk. Does this describe what you are experiencing also? Curious if any other methods from the VagCom or OBD11 tweaks tune out this behavior. It seems a bit disconcerting. Understeer is a bit dangerous, snap oversteer as well. It sounds like a stiffer bar or some electronic tweaks are what is needed. I just picked up my GTI and will play around until I find the balance I want. I purchased the Eibach 25mm bar in hopes it would tune out that understeer completely.
Watched the vid and no. Not exactly.

For the general population, Understeer is inherently safer than oversteer because typically, to shed off understeer all you have to do is lift off the throttle and steering cones back in line. Understeer is occurring because your front tire’s contact patches are being overwhelmed by being asked to turn and accelerate (or brake) at the same time with too much asking (either in steering or throttle or brake requests). As mentioned earlier, let off the throttle during understeer and your car will respond to steering inputs. Lift off the throttle too quickly and you can induce snap oversteer.

A larger rear sway bar will only accentuate snap (lift throttle) oversteer.

A larger rear sway bar will get the car to rotate more easily- great for something like auto cross, where speeds are lower and you want the car to dance around.

Through a 70-100mph turn I don’t want the car dancing- I want it behaving neutral. The small (but larger than factory) SuperPro fits the bill. It made the car more neutral through 97% of the overall turn while the initial 3% of turn in is just slightly less responsive (since my car has more negative camber up front than factory and the front suspension is very responsive- it was very quick to turn in- now that initial response is a hair slower because the rear is firmed up).

End result is that overall understeer has been dialed out with the SuperPro 22mm rsb.
 
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Navi

Drag Racing Champion
Location
BK/NYC/Hamptons
Not sure why everyone only focuses on the diameter whenever the SuperPro sway bar is brought up. Stock bar is hollow. SuperPro is solid. Apples and oranges.

Also, I would not take any savage geese video as good advice for driving or handling. Ever.
 

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
Not sure why everyone only focuses on the diameter whenever the SuperPro sway bar is brought up. Stock bar is hollow. SuperPro is solid. Apples and oranges.

Also, I would not take any savage geese video as good advice for driving or handling. Ever.
I think the PP 20mm may be solid while the non PP 21.7mm rsb is of hollow design.
And i also was not particularly in accord with the video’s narrator perspectives.
 
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SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
PP is hollow also. If I remember correctly the PP is 21.7 x 3.0. The non PP is solid 20.
I just pulled my take off PP sway bar from the wall and wrapped some tape strands around different locations along the bar (near Center and closer to the endlinks) to measure overall Circumference. The tape strands measured 63mm in length. 63mm divided by 3.14 and it’s a 20mm bar.
 
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sloopercat

New member
Location
Knoxville
In the Miata world, which I am more familiar with, some AX guys disconnect the rear sway to get the front tires to bite in the relatively slow AX speeds. The handling trait I am describing is the squirrelly behavior near the limits at speed as described by SG. He states it is like the torque vectoring has a delay factor that can lead you to initial understeer at higher speed. He demonstrates that clearly in the video. I have seen enough of his car reviews to respect his understanding of how a car behaves. To eliminate that dance, the vectoring would have to engage quicker or the car rotate on its own to eliminate that quirk.

It should not impress anyone but I have logged 150+ hours of track time in my Miatas with various combinations of suspension parts. This is my 5th Golf variant including an R. Also had a VR6 and G60 Corrado, so I know what snap oversteer feels like. What he is describing sounds similar to what I had in my 2012 R before I put in a different rear diff controller in. I do a lot of enthusiastic driving on the roads of TN, several thousands of twisty road mountain drives. And believe me, suspension set up is a personal preference. Neutral to slight oversteer is what I prefer, understand why that is not how cars are set up for the average driving public.

I did go into the settings and set my traction control to the more aggressive settings. I see videos of folks using the OBD11 to set traction control also. Not sure if those do the same thing since it appears that the electronics and setting change between trims and years. Not seeing any info so far on tweaking the vectoring.

Thanks for the info so far, I respect your experiences/suggestion. Will see when the bar comes in, it was back ordered, so it gives me time to sort out the car as is.
 

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
In the Miata world, which I am more familiar with, some AX guys disconnect the rear sway to get the front tires to bite in the relatively slow AX speeds. The handling trait I am describing is the squirrelly behavior near the limits at speed as described by SG. He states it is like the torque vectoring has a delay factor that can lead you to initial understeer at higher speed. He demonstrates that clearly in the video. I have seen enough of his car reviews to respect his understanding of how a car behaves. To eliminate that dance, the vectoring would have to engage quicker or the car rotate on its own to eliminate that quirk.

It should not impress anyone but I have logged 150+ hours of track time in my Miatas with various combinations of suspension parts. This is my 5th Golf variant including an R. Also had a VR6 and G60 Corrado, so I know what snap oversteer feels like. What he is describing sounds similar to what I had in my 2012 R before I put in a different rear diff controller in. I do a lot of enthusiastic driving on the roads of TN, several thousands of twisty road mountain drives. And believe me, suspension set up is a personal preference. Neutral to slight oversteer is what I prefer, understand why that is not how cars are set up for the average driving public.

I did go into the settings and set my traction control to the more aggressive settings. I see videos of folks using the OBD11 to set traction control also. Not sure if those do the same thing since it appears that the electronics and setting change between trims and years. Not seeing any info so far on tweaking the vectoring.

Thanks for the info so far, I respect your experiences/suggestion. Will see when the bar comes in, it was back ordered, so it gives me time to sort out the car as is.
A friend of mine who autocrosses a prepared Miata disconnects his rear sway bar.

Watched the video again and fast forwarded to the handling part. What I see is simply plain old higher powered front wheel drive car issues with this car which are well masked by the diff and nannies. I have had a pro driver turn a few laps in my car comment that he feels the nannies don’t completely turn off on the GTI and I told him he’s correct.

My seat time on track experience has been in rear engine Formula RT/2000 (spun one once at Turn 1 in Sebring during LTO dynamics!), Skip MX-5 Cup Car, Spec Miata, Subaru WRX, Mazda RX8, BMW 135i and now MK7.5.

The RX8 was absolutely neutral in handling. Of the above the WRX was most similar to the GTI but the AWD would power me out of mistakes. The Bimmer would initially understeer then onset to oversteer.

The GTI will not recover back online like the AWD WRX- it will pull off the road like Savage goose showed but I don’t agree that it’s a quirk particular to the GTI- it’s a typical higher powered FWD car issue. My old front drive turbo DSM was similar but only much worse.
 
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Navi

Drag Racing Champion
Location
BK/NYC/Hamptons
PP is hollow also.
I just pulled my take off PP sway bar from the wall and wrapped some tape strands around different locations along the bar (near Center and closer to the endlinks) to measure overall Circumference. The tape strands measured 63mm in length. 63mm divided by 3.14 and it’s a 20mm bar.
Wonder what bar that is? What’s the part number on it? Prefacelift performance pack is 5Q0511305BA. Prefacelift without performance pack is 5QM511305C.

edit: I did a quick search on 2018 and 2019 models and the rear sway part numbers are the same as pre facelift. Is your car non performance pack? That would explain the 20mm diameter.
 

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
Wonder what bar that is? What’s the part number on it? Prefacelift performance pack is 5Q0511305BA. Prefacelift without performance pack is 5QM511305C.

edit: I did a quick search on 2018 and 2019 models and the rear sway part numbers are the same as pre facelift. Is your car non performance pack? That would explain the 20mm diameter.
It’s a 305C bar. Car has PP brakes. 2019 S
???
 
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Clem604

Ready to race!
Wonder what bar that is? What’s the part number on it? Prefacelift performance pack is 5Q0511305BA. Prefacelift without performance pack is 5QM511305C.

edit: I did a quick search on 2018 and 2019 models and the rear sway part numbers are the same as pre facelift. Is your car non performance pack? That would explain the 20mm diameter.
My 2018 7.5 came with the 20mm bar stock as well, I was under the impression that the 7.5's would get the 21.7mm bars that the Mk7 PP's had. For the 7.5's I do not believe there was a performance pack option as for 2018's Autobahn trims, at least in Canada, came with PP brakes and the VAQ diff as standard.
 

SouthFL_Mk7.5

Go Kart Newbie
Location
South Florida
Ride
2019 GTI S
My 2018 7.5 came with the 20mm bar stock as well, I was under the impression that the 7.5's would get the 21.7mm bars that the Mk7 PP's had. For the 7.5's I do not believe there was a performance pack option as for 2018's Autobahn trims, at least in Canada, came with PP brakes and the VAQ diff as standard.
VAQ diff.
Maybe this explains why my ‘19 doesn’t perform the strange delayed vectoring correction characteristic of the elec diff described in the goose video linked by sloopercat? Could it be the VAQ diff?
 

ucfquattroguy

Ready to race!
Location
Florida USA
Keep in mind that some of the "snap" oversteer in some situations is because the OE bar will bind with the link bushings and cause the effective rate of the bar to go way up suddenly. Some aftermarket options address this making the handling characteristics as you increase weight transfer more progressive.
 
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