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22.2 (034) to 24/25mm RSB -- any difference?

Charlotte.:R

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte
Car(s)
'18 Golf R 6MT
The 034 RSB was one of my first mods, and I was hesitant to go with one of the bigger 24/25mm options. Now, I kind of wish that I had.

Would there be a noticeable difference with a 1.8-2.8mm larger RSB?

Trying to justify going with a bigger RSB and flipping the 034 bar.
 

daconchslop

Autocross Champion
Location
SC
Car(s)
ACS SE/Tech
The 034 RSB was one of my first mods, and I was hesitant to go with one of the bigger 24/25mm options. Now, I kind of wish that I had.

Would there be a noticeable difference with a 1.8-2.8mm larger RSB?

Trying to justify going with a bigger RSB and flipping the 034 bar.



I thought the OEM rsb is 21.7mm? You would not feel much if the 034 is only 22.2mm. The jump up to a 24mm or higher should be very noticeable.


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daconchslop

Autocross Champion
Location
SC
Car(s)
ACS SE/Tech
Isn’t oem hollow and 034 solid though?



Indeed it is. Now I wonder how much more a 24mm hollow bar would provide over the 034. I know I’ve seen lengthy threads on this. What materials are they made from cause they could be pretty close in tensile strength. Where the engineers at?


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Charlotte.:R

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte
Car(s)
'18 Golf R 6MT
Indeed it is. Now I wonder how much more a 24mm hollow bar would provide over the 034. I know I’ve seen lengthy threads on this. What materials are they made from cause they could be pretty close in tensile strength. Where the engineers at?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, there are online calculators, but you need to know the exact dimensions, and I can't really seem to find those published.

It would be 8-12% larger in diameter, but IDK if that would make a noticeable difference.
 

ucfquattroguy

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Florida USA
As others have posted, there's more to it than just diameter (hollow vs. solid, if it's hollow you need to know wall thickness, etc.). I wish these vendors would stop mucking about and list actual spring rates of theirs vs. OEM bars.

Then again, most buyers are uninterested in such things. So there's little to no reason for them to measure and publish the specs.
 

NCM

Ready to race!
Location
Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Car(s)
2015 Golf R
Yeah, there are online calculators, but you need to know the exact dimensions, and I can't really seem to find those published.

It would be 8-12% larger in diameter, but IDK if that would make a noticeable difference.

The torsional stiffness of a bar varies with the 4th power of its diameter, so seemingly small changes in diameter do actually result in meaningful increases in stiffness. For example, if everything else remains the same, the 4.5% increase to 23mm diameter from the stock 22mm rear bar would result in over 19% greater stiffness.

You also don't need to have any of the bar dimensions to compare the effect of these diameter changes, since as long as you're looking at a single car application those dimensions will solve out of the comparison, being near enough identical between bars. Otherwise they wouldn't fit.

Unfortunately this simple estimating method only holds for solid bars, whereas the R has a hollow stock rear bar. For that construction you calculate a reference stiffness first for a solid bar of the same outer diameter, then for a solid bar corresponding to the inner diameter of the hollow bar, and subtract one from the other.

But do we know the inner diameter? No we don't, but there is a way to get some idea of it. On the stock bar, the end tab where the links bolt on is made by just stamping the original tube in a press until it's flat. If you look at that area on the stock bar you can actually distinguish the two walls of the tube at the end. Measure that double thickness with a Vernier caliper, subtract it from the bar's outer diameter and you now have the inner diameter — more or less. It's going to be an inexact number, because the material thickness is likely to have been reduced somewhat in the stamping together process, so what we measure may be a bit less than the native wall thickness of the steel tube.

I measure the stock bar at 22mm OD, and the tab thickness at 7.4mm, suggesting an ID of 14.6mm. That would provide equivalent stiffness to a solid bar of 20.8mm OD. If you hypothesize that the wall thickness of the raw tubing as purchased might likely have been 4mm, the solid equivalent OD comes out to 21mm — not too different.

Now we have a way to compare the 22mm hollow stock rear sway bar, which is roughly equivalent to a 21mm solid bar (but much lighter), to aftermarket solid bars of known diameter.

What we can't necessarily do is compare it to a hollow aftermarket bar. My APR rear bar is 1 inch diameter (25.4mm) and hollow. However its link mounting tabs aren't made by crushing the bar ends, instead consisting of welded-on tabs cut from steel plate. Short of sawing the bar in half to take measurements — yeah, not doing that! — there's no easy way to know its ID. (Hmm, guess I could take a crack at that by measuring its total tubing length, weighing the bar, and using the known density of steel to figure out how much is "missing", but that seems like a whole lot of work, and probably not too accurate anyway.)

BTW, feel free to flag me on any math errors in the above. Stuff happens...

I can tell you that my APR bar, when set on the stiffer of two (arguably three) settings, has a dramatically beneficial effect on handling. However it does want aftermarket links, adding some extra to the project cost.

Neil

Note: If you want to get more accurate about the stiffness of a sway bar you'll also take into account the bending of its two arms under load. The better online calculators do that. However the effect of diameter changes on bending is much smaller than on the torsion of the bar's main span, so I'm intentionally ignoring it.
 
Last edited:

daconchslop

Autocross Champion
Location
SC
Car(s)
ACS SE/Tech
This forum is awesome.


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Charlotte.:R

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte
Car(s)
'18 Golf R 6MT
As others have posted, there's more to it than just diameter (hollow vs. solid, if it's hollow you need to know wall thickness, etc.). I wish these vendors would stop mucking about and list actual spring rates of theirs vs. OEM bars.

Then again, most buyers are uninterested in such things. So there's little to no reason for them to measure and publish the specs.

+1

There is obviously some R&D involved in this, so why not publish the actual rates???

The torsional stiffness of a bar varies with the 4th power of its diameter, so seemingly small changes in diameter do actually result in meaningful increases in stiffness. For example, if everything else remains the same, the 4.5% increase to 23mm diameter from the stock 22mm rear bar would result in over 19% greater stiffness.

Focusing on this.....how are you coming up with 19%?

Regardless, if I extrapolate that, going up 8% to a 24is going to be something like a 33% increase in stiffness, which sounds like it should be noticeable.

You also don't need to have any of the bar dimensions to compare the effect of these diameter changes, since as long as you're looking at a single car application those dimensions will solve out of the comparison, being near enough identical between bars. Otherwise they wouldn't fit.

Unfortunately this simple estimating method only holds for solid bars, whereas the R has a hollow stock rear bar. For that construction you calculate a reference stiffness first for a solid bar of the same outer diameter, then for a solid bar corresponding to the inner diameter of the hollow bar, and subtract one from the other.

But do we know the inner diameter? No we don't, but there is a way to get some idea of it. On the stock bar, the end tab where the links bolt on is made by just stamping the original tube in a press until it's flat. If you look at that area on the stock bar you can actually distinguish the two walls of the tube at the end. Measure that double thickness with a Vernier caliper, subtract it from the bar's outer diameter and you now have the inner diameter — more or less. It's going to be an inexact number, because the material thickness is likely to have been reduced somewhat in the stamping together process, so what we measure may be a bit less than the native wall thickness of the steel tube.

I measure the stock bar at 22mm OD, and the tab thickness at 7.4mm, suggesting an ID of 14.6mm. That would provide equivalent stiffness to a solid bar of 20.8mm OD. If you hypothesize that the wall thickness of the raw tubing as purchased might likely have been 4mm, the solid equivalent OD comes out to 21mm — not too different.

Now we have a way to compare the 22mm hollow stock rear sway bar, which is roughly equivalent to a 21mm solid bar (but much lighter), to aftermarket solid bars of known diameter.

What we can't necessarily do is compare it to a hollow aftermarket bar. My APR rear bar is 1 inch diameter (25.4mm) and hollow. However its link mounting tabs aren't made by crushing the bar ends, instead consisting of welded-on tabs cut from steel plate. Short of sawing the bar in half to take measurements — yeah, not doing that! — there's no easy way to know its ID. (Hmm, guess I could take a crack at that by measuring its total tubing length, weighing the bar, and using the known density of steel to figure out how much is "missing", but that seems like a whole lot of work, and probably not too accurate anyway.)

BTW, feel free to flag me on any math errors in the above. Stuff happens...

I can tell you that my APR bar, when set on the stiffer of two (arguably three) settings, has a dramatically beneficial effect on handling. However it does want aftermarket links, adding some extra to the project cost.

Neil

Thanks Neil, that was rather in-depth :)
 

Charlotte.:R

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte
Car(s)
'18 Golf R 6MT
22 to the 4th power equals 234,256
23 to the 4th power equals 279,841
Dividing the second result by the first gives 1.1945
Which is +19% (rounded off).

(Thank you Excel...)

Thanks! I glossed right over the 4th power of the diameter and was trying to calculate the difference based on the % change in size lol.

So Whiteline/SuperPro 24mm would be ~36,6% stiffer than the 22.2 034, and the H&R 25 would be ~61% stiffer.

Decisions decisions....Whiteline offered me the 24mm for $185 shipped. I need to see how much the H&R 25mm runs.
 

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
This is why I read threads that may not even concern me.
Kind of like reading a magazine cover to cover. Sometimes the most interesting and informative articles are the ones you really didn't care to read.

Thanks NCM.


Now completely unrelated, but I think increased camber in the front makes a much bigger difference than rsb. I am on stock Golf RSB which is much smaller than Golf R and car rotates very easily to the point that you have to be wary about lifting of mid turn or you'll spin.
 

HalfGerman

Go Kart Newbie
Location
NH
Car(s)
2018 Golf R
Alright, now someone needs to make a list from "mild" to "track" on the various bars in terms of stiffness. :)

On my old '04 Passat 4Motion, I went from a solid 15mm to a 17mm bar, the difference was noticable. Especially in the snow, you could get the rear end to rotate better with the throttle. Wasn't much for selection on a low volume car.
 

NCM

Ready to race!
Location
Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Car(s)
2015 Golf R
So Whiteline/SuperPro 24mm would be ~36,6% stiffer than the 22.2 034, and the H&R 25 would be ~61% stiffer.

Yeah, but only if they're all of similar construction, e.g. all hollow and similar wall thickness, or else all solid (stock 22mm is tubular, not solid).

Decisions decisions....Whiteline offered me the 24mm for $185 shipped. I need to see how much the H&R 25mm runs.

Here's how I decided: I wanted a hollow bar, because it's much lighter for equivalent function, and APR's was on sale that week. End of decision process!

Neil
 

Charlotte.:R

Autocross Champion
Location
Charlotte
Car(s)
'18 Golf R 6MT
Yeah, but only if they're all of similar construction, e.g. all hollow and similar wall thickness, or else all solid (stock 22mm is tubular, not solid).

In this case, the 034, Whiteline and H&R are all solid, so I'm basing the comparison as incremental to my existing 034

Here's how I decided: I wanted a hollow bar, because it's much lighter for equivalent function, and APR's was on sale that week. End of decision process!
Neil

I thought there were cases of the APR hollow bars snapping? Probably unlikely on a street driven car though.....
 
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