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2023-2024 MQB Suspension Rundown (street & track setup)

AzteCypher

Go Kart Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
Mk7 Golf R
I was looking for a hair more of a drop on my R in the front and I wasn't sure I wanted coil overs. Going to have to look at Mk7.5 R front springs now.

I do have a question though. Is it a bad idea to use Bilstein B8s with stock R suspension?
 

TheBlondeFella

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Somewhere Over The Rainbow
Car(s)
MK7 Golf R
the R always does better lap times and not by a little. Also the engine is better equipped to handle abuse than the gti.
If you're comparing a stock power Mk7 Gti against a stock power Mk7 R then there os a chance that your comment could be correct as there is a big power difference between the 2.
However when you consider similar powered cars like a Mk7 R and a Mk7.5 TCR Gti the TCR will likely always faster on a dry track.
Just look at the official Nurburgring times; 8.04 a TCR and 8.14 for an R! Thats TEN SECONDS!!!!
Don't get me wrong I love the R and its a fast road car in all conditions but on a dry track, a similar powered GTi (in the right hands and not mine) it will always be a faster.
 

TheBlondeFella

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Somewhere Over The Rainbow
Car(s)
MK7 Golf R
Somehow it has only taken 2 people (not you, @krs) to turn parts of an informative thread into a p*ssing match of Twitter-like proportions.

👀 🙃 😆

Hopefully the other 800 readers and viewers [thus far] will find something helpful in it.
Sorry if my comments have come across as a p*ssing contest. That was not my goal at all.
I was simply putting my point of view on the subject based on my own experiences.
My original post had a couple of typos (which I have now edited) which may have also caused some confusion as well.

The problem is, posts like this are derived from a personal point of view or experience however more often than not, other individuals points or view or experiences are likely to differ. I feel that as long as these different point of view are made with respect they should not be viewed as a p*ssing contest.
 

Greg_mk7

Go Kart Newbie
Location
Montreal
Car(s)
2017 golf R
If you're comparing a stock power Mk7 Gti against a stock power Mk7 R then there os a chance that your comment could be correct as there is a big power difference between the 2.
However when you consider similar powered cars like a Mk7 R and a Mk7.5 TCR Gti the TCR will likely always faster on a dry track.
Just look at the official Nurburgring times; 8.04 a TCR and 8.14 for an R! Thats TEN SECONDS!!!!
Don't get me wrong I love the R and its a fast road car in all conditions but on a dry track, a similar powered GTi (in the right hands and not mine) it will always be a faster.
Ya for sure i agree. TCR, clubport s are all faster, however they have more than just the same power. They have R springs and dampers, different bushings, bigger rear sway bar, different hubs and lighter weight. I wish we would get them here.
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
I was looking for a hair more of a drop on my R in the front and I wasn't sure I wanted coil overs. Going to have to look at Mk7.5 R front springs now.

I do have a question though. Is it a bad idea to use Bilstein B8s with stock R suspension?
Not at all. I just covered this in a DM with another member (who rightly chose not to comment in this thread, since it's turned into a Twitter fest in places)

The Mk7.5 springs still provide an honest 15mm drop, and the B8s have been run with all the major lowering springs on the market, from mild (DG, Mk7.5 R) to slammed (ED, Eiback P-K for GTI, Neuspeed Race, etc).

On GTI & R cars, the B8s actually favor more conservative drops, due to the loss of valuable compression travel when running conventional 25-30mm drop springs.

This is why nearly every user who has run B8s with the "I look cool" drop springs have encountered the infamous clashing-crashing the B8s are known for when they lose spring rate and travel.

On B8 setups, the H&R OE Sports did this, as do the H&R Sport and SS versions. ED and Eibach P-K (for GTIs, progressive coils) have also proven to be insufficient.

Even folks with the Koni adjustables, which use traditional OE style external bumpstops, have experienced occasional crashing. Tony (@DerHase) has taken measurements of travel on these cars and shared it with the community, so everything I'm saying can be verified via other sources.

@tigeo had to use rubber travel limiters on his H&R OE Sports with B8s, I tried this as well when I ran the OE Sports, but I couldn't get the little fockers to stay in when driving and turning.

Back on topic, for the haters and doubters, who are but a few thus far, you can go to Suspension (this forum)...filter by my user handle, and navigate to the threads and posts I have made since early 2023. Focus in on the threads and posts related to springs and Bilstein B8s.

Do the same in Track/Autocross sub-forum. Nothing I have shared on here is armchair like we sometimes see on the forums. It isn't "oh my friend did this," or "I read somewhere that..."

Hopefully this wisdom can keep the thread productive and helpful.











PS - 1k views and counting on this thread.
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GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
@AzteCypher - you are right up the road from me, and I would be happy to take you for a spirited drive in Stormy so you can see for yourself before committing to a final decision on your suspension build path. This is what I wanted for myself years past, just didn't know anyone in my area with an MQB and my desired mods.

You still have my cell?
 

GoatAutomotive

Autocross Champion
Location
Georgetown, TX
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI SE, DSG
The problem is, posts like this are derived from a personal point of view or experience however more often than not, other individuals points or view or experiences are likely to differ. I feel that as long as these different point of view are made with respect they should not be viewed as a p*ssing contest.
I try to limit POV and opinion in my posts, as it can be very limited for the reasons you described.

I actually draw from a larger sample group, since I have done this professionally for 11 years (my own shop)...worked 22 combined years in the auto industry, and I had a pretty fun 10-year amateur racing career from 2007-2016, where I handled all the R&D, plus driving. (think Ken Miles, but without all the podiums) 😆 👀

It was a ton of work, but it's part of what made me an encyclopedia on certain platforms, especially with chassis and engine calibration.

I have sampled and personally tuned a LOT of chassis setups, so I am definitely the outlier on the bell curve when it comes to tech posts:

I am either asking questions to improve my own KB, or to troubleshoot a problem...or I am posting real world experiences from myself and others, who I interview via phone, email and DMs; or who let me ride and drive in their setups.

I post this here just for clarification to anyone new to the forums, or unfamiliar with my brand, who may be reading this...today, or years down the road.

🍻 😎 😁
 

AzteCypher

Go Kart Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
Mk7 Golf R
@AzteCypher - you are right up the road from me, and I would be happy to take you for a spirited drive in Stormy so you can see for yourself before committing to a final decision on your suspension build path. This is what I wanted for myself years past, just didn't know anyone in my area with an MQB and my desired mods.

You still have my cell?
Nope. Shoot me a pm and let me know when you have time. I'd love to get a sense of it.

Guess I know what I'll be working on this winter.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
A few things to note:

Above you say I have "H&R OE Sport" springs - that is not accurate. I have the standard H&R Sport springs on my wagon so the ones that lower it more.

I am surprised you didn't just drill a hole/run a zip tie on the rubber springs helpers that I use/did (I thought I recommended that to you?). Mine stay in place without issue and handled 4 days of tripled-digit speed curb stomping at VIR. Simple fix and these do help increase the rate a bit (lift the car a touch adding bump travel) to prevent harsh bottoming. I really like the feel these give me for $13.

The B8 internal jounce/bump stop should be the same type of material but likely a bit harder/higher durometer than the stockers based on pics of seen of a Bilstein torn down. They aren't a solid rubber or plastic.

You don't "hit" the stops, you are on/in the stops up front for most cases up front on these cars (unless you have a very mild lowering as in less than an inch) when you lower them/sitting at ride height based on my measurements. They just give you the additional progressiveness you need when you have an inch of bump travel total here and all of that 1 inch+ will include the internal stop in that travel/spring rate. The rears based on my measurements were off the jounces by a decent amount having more "free travel" than the fronts but similar, the jounce gets contacted at some point in the travel and the spring rate (regardless of the springs being linear) will now become progressive as you approach the limit of travel which actually happens much more than folks realize...folks make it sound like you hit these and it's the big event...you are actually riding/using them all the time...you only feel this when you get all the way through the travel and fully bottom out...but you "hit" the stop well before that happened/you felt that jarring.

Finally, the difference in B6 vs. 8 is only in the 1" shorter shaft travel (through an internal spacer) that manifests itself as 1" lower droop; compression/bump travel from ride height is identical. It's only shorter to give a bit more preload on a potentially shorter lowering spring so the spring stays seated at full extension. Thing is, most lowering springs are identical length as the stockers and achieve the lowering by use of dead/helper coils anyway so no real need for a shorter damper to accommodate. Most lowering springs being called "progressive" are really dual-rate and are effectively linear for the travel you ride on/with. The dead coils that are a v. low rate vs. the main part of the coil are only in-play when you are fully extended. Folks seem fixated on needing the linear Eibach for example vs. the progressive but really, they should work/feel the same (how I think about it at least)....the jounces being part of the spring travel really negate the purely linear nature of any spring). Unless you are doing a coilover with a short linear race spring that has adjustment to deal with the short typically high-rate springs and v. small harsh bump stops I can't see much of an advantage. I have never felt like the dual-rate "progressive" H&Rs have any strange behavior w/r to my car's handling on track. Bottom line you can run either 6 or 8 and the only difference will be the 6 will allow 1" more droop. B6/8 are the same damper and can be used for many applications interchangeably. It's why Koni doesn't offer a shorter "for lowering springs" damper/Sport yellows.

In your first post you mention 034 strut mounts...are you referring to the camber or "Camster" style that add camber and caster? Then you refer to the "solid" style and list Superpro which are the same as the 034 but use poly vs. rubber in the mount. Did you mean to just lump all of the metal mounts together vs. stock rubber ones? I know @DerHase has run the 034 camster mounts without any issues on stock springs, they seem like a great upgrade for a potentially small NVH penalty (which he noted was not an issue on his install).

I don't think anybody here is a hater, just having some disagreement/questioning of your info which is of course...what happens on forums so go with the flow bro!
 
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tigeo

Autocross Champion
Did you ever take center axle to fender measurements for any of these springs? Hard to talk about fender gaps with different size wheel/tire combos based on those pictures.
 
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MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
Nope. Shoot me a pm and let me know when you have time. I'd love to get a sense of it.

Guess I know what I'll be working on this winter.
And if you want to test it a B14 setup, we can all meetup.
 

geokilla

Go Kart Champion
Location
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Car(s)
2018 VW GTI DSG
And if you want to test it a B14 setup, we can all meetup.
Either I messed up choosing my suspension parts, or the B14 sucks... I do not like it at all and I gave the coils as much travel as possible. Also to prevent scraping and hitting the bump stops on our terrible roads.
 

MonkeyMD

Autocross Champion
Either I messed up choosing my suspension parts, or the B14 sucks... I do not like it at all and I gave the coils as much travel as possible. Also to prevent scraping and hitting the bump stops on our terrible roads.

Coming from shot Dinan coilovers with only 230lbin front springs, the B14 were a huge upgrade where i was hitting bump stops all the time, never do now. Only thing i wish is if they had more rebound damping.

I did the same. Mine did pretty high but not all the way up as they won't perform well at extremes of range.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Either I messed up choosing my suspension parts, or the B14 sucks... I do not like it at all and I gave the coils as much travel as possible. Also to prevent scraping and hitting the bump stops on our terrible roads.
What specifically is the issue you are having with them? Giving them too much travel by maxing the preload out will make them ride like ass b/c you will be topped out all the time. Needs to be set to have a balance of bump/droop.
 
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