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2021 Formula 1 Season

perryis5150

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Champaign,Il
Car(s)
2017 VW GTI S
My favorite "he knows what'll happen if we crash" moment was Alonso overtaking Schumacher at 130R in 2005. When asked how he knew Michael would be respectful and keep things tidy during such a daring attack, he responded with something to the effect of "well, he's got kids, so...".

I'm all for the grey areas in the regs. Exploiting a driver's psyche is just as much a part of it all, and battles are that much better for it, in my opinion.


Edit: for those that haven't seen the balls on this guy


Was there every a video from Schumacher's car?
 

1ashchuckton

Autocross Champion
Location
Ohio
My favorite "he knows what'll happen if we crash" moment was Alonso overtaking Schumacher at 130R in 2005. When asked how he knew Michael would be respectful and keep things tidy during such a daring attack, he responded with something to the effect of "well, he's got kids, so...".

I'm all for the grey areas in the regs. Exploiting a driver's psyche is just as much a part of it all, and battles are that much better for it, in my opinion.


Edit: for those that haven't seen the balls on this guy

Yes large attachments indeed. That was when he was at the top of his game in a competitive car. I think he still has most of it, but the hardware lets him down. The fact he strapped into an Indy car & aimed at walls doing 200 mph+ tells me he has no fear.
 

torga

Autocross Champion
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'11 GTI
Was there every a video from Schumacher's car?

Not that I know of. This is the best I've found, which shows a bit more of Schumacher's actions, but it's still not an onboard.


Yes large attachments indeed. That was when he was at the top of his game in a competitive car. I think he still has most of it, but the hardware lets him down. The fact he strapped into an Indy car & aimed at walls doing 200 mph+ tells me he has no fear.

Definitely has a lot of it. Our last reminder was this year in Hungary, defending against Hamilton for so long at a track that favors setup and skill more so than outright power.
I think ultimately Alonso just hasn't had luck on his side - an important factor. Incredible near misses in the 2007, 2010 and 2012 championships. If a butterfly had farted across the world, he could've very well been a 5 times champion.
 

1ashchuckton

Autocross Champion
Location
Ohio
Yes Alonso holding Hamilton off in Hungry was a master class. His car placement was perfect.
Alonso should well have won many more championships. Not sure about butterfly farts, but I do believe it was a unicorn farting rainbows that did him in.
 

hans611

Lost
Location
Miami
Car(s)
'16 Golf R 6MT
The worst 2 moments for me in in F1, Abu Dabi 2010 with Alonso stuck behind Petrov and Brazil 2012, when it looked like he was set to win the WDC and then Vettel pulled maybe his best race ever.

I didn't really see him much during his first stint at Renault when he was on top of the world, I only saw him becoming the underdog on the shitbox ferrari for those 4 years..... but man did he give it his all...
I still think he is the best (most complete) driver on the grid. (In natural/raw talent, he gets edged out imo by Hamilton, Verstappen... maybe even Leclerc)

If you give the entire grid spec cars, I reckon it would be him on top after a full race... just dont ask too many questions on how he got there lol, but that's a true racer.
You cannot have racing without racing drivers... this whole push to punish Verstappen is getting old, the video makes it look worse than it is.

Having so many time penalties (especially retroactive ones, or ones that count for the following race), grid drops, reprimands, license penalty points, etc... ridiculous.
This is all recent for F1, it used to be way more hands off, specially in the 2000s.

Modern F1 cars are longer than an F150 or Expedition, and heavily rear weight balanced, they are extremely prone to snap oversteer with the finicky aero once it gets going....
Yes he get cocky with the inside late braking, but once he was committed, he really couldn't turn in any more without spinning-off on the dirty painted concrete runoff area, full of tire marbles, etc..

Him "pushing Hamilton" is him correcting oversteer, any more left steering input and he is going to loose the rear and spin into Hamilton and end both of their races.
Hamilton got a 10s penalty for "crashing Verstappen out" in Silverstone this year (and "sending him to the hospital" with he 2nd highest g's in F1 crash history)

What would be an appropriate action for this event in comparison then? Do we give him 5s or a stern talk? (Verstappen got a 3 place grid drop for "crashing out Hamilton" in Monza, so its not like the stewards favor him)
Its just hard racing guys, he won the race. Probably Verstappen gave him his best race ever, for the record books... Something about Interlagos and historic races!

You cant be armchair experts... It seems like 3/4 of the F1 fans in this board are very recent, maybe because of that Netflix show, all calling for Verstappen's head.
Does that show really make him look that bad? I assume so because from your POV, Red Bull is the "Dark Side" or "the Sith".

I haven't even seen those shows, cant make it past the first ep or 2 every season... so much fake drama, using sound bits from different weekends, etc its ridiculous, take it with a pinch of salt.
At least they are getting good historic footage that can later be used to make proper documentaries.....

For me, for the past 7 years (since 2014), Mercedes has been more Dark Side than anything and I love me a good underdog story.... I think where you guys get it wrong is you think Hamilton is the underdog?
Honestly we are getting an absolutely historic season, I am so happy I got to see them at COTA, we got a fantastic race... basically every race this season has been great.
Just sit back and and enjoy! After 7 years of Mercedes dominance, whatever happens, happens, I have made my peace.... My 3rd worst moment in F1 came in Singapore 2017.

edit: I think Verstappen is a dutch driving robot. He plays video games and races cars... there is less going on that its made seem... If you look past the drama he is just maybe too honest/cynical.. comes off as too Dutch in his interviews, with maybe some clever editing always looks bad.
 
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bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
18 GTI SE - 3 Pedals
I've been watching F1 long enough to have routed for Michele Alboreto, I'm a tifosi and would love to see Ferrari return to relevance, but that's sort of like routing for the Jets. I like Red Bull and Horner, but Max drives unsafely at nearly every opportunity. "Correcting oversteer" did make me chuckle though, that's a good one. I'm not sure how the Netflix series would really color people's opinions, it's always a season behind and just a recap of that season. Max is who he is, he's actually driven in a much more sportsmanlike manner most of this season, with a few obvious returns to form.

I grew up idolizing Senna and will always hold him in the highest regard, but he and Schumi certainly drove aggressively in a manner that is easy to see wasn't always in the best interest of their competitors. But Max comes at it differently and without regard for the outcome. He's at least partially responsible for the magnitude of the Silverstone shunt, he had the ability to avoid or at least greatly reduce the severity of that situation, but drove the way he always does. Of course that also leaves burden upon Lewis to have recognized that, but if you have to treat one driver differently than 20 others, that creates a dangerous situation for that rogue driver.

If Max were really just a driving robot, we'd just have Hakkinen 2.0, but we have some weird blend of Hakkinen and Coulthard, the speed and raw talent of Mika mixed with a dangerous lack of regard for safety and sportsmanship like ol' David. It's hard for me to root for Lewis to win another title, as I like having Schumi at the top and still think of him as the better driver, and it's probably inevitable that Max will win a championship, but I'm perfectly fine if it doesn't happen this year.

For the record, I hate FIA penalties for on track occurrences, let the drivers sort it out unless it's so egregious that there's no wiggle room. Lewis found a way around Max, if Max had actually hit him, I think there would have been a justified need for a grid penalty this weekend, but that's not how it played out, let them race.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
18 GTI SE - 3 Pedals
Oh, and thanks for coming to my town for a race, looking forward to being in yours next year. Gonna be nice having two US races. I haven't looked, but is Miami another Tilke track?
 

hans611

Lost
Location
Miami
Car(s)
'16 Golf R 6MT
I grew up idolizing Senna and will always hold him in the highest regard, but he and Schumi certainly drove aggressively in a manner that is easy to see wasn't always in the best interest of their competitors.

You are going to have to clarify that, but I'm thinking we have widely different ideas as to what racing is.... these guys aren't out doing some weekend autocross
This isnt a bug, its a feature, them being cut-throat... its not a coincidence the best are very aggressive, even Lewis, never like Max, but when he had less to loose, would be at the limit plenty.

I meant Dutch driving robot in the way he speaks to the press, not the way he drives.. he is a driving robot as in he isn't very political/elegant like Horner or Marko, He just drives and is very Dutch in the way he speaks, as in very straightforward, honest/blunt...

And I agree he is definitely up there one of the most aggressive on the grid, even after calming down.

Here this guy does a good job explaining what happened... the explanation really begins at 2:30...


Verstappen brakes actually a bit earlier than Hamilton but then lets off the pedal really early as well..... So he can get ahead right before the corner and keep Hamilton on the outside....
At that point he is like 10kph faster but the front end is light and understeering on the dirty inside line...

Thats where the damage is done, that's where he ran Hamilton off the road... he knew he wasn't gonna make the corner, everyone knows that.

I was referring to the point where they are side by side off the track, this is what I wrote:

Him "pushing Hamilton" is him correcting oversteer, any more left steering input and he is going to loose the rear and spin into Hamilton and end both of their races.

He refers to this controversy at 4:05... some people think that at this point Verstappen is turning out and pushing Hamilton off the track, he doesn't need to do that, he is just getting back to the racing line (the fastest line) as fast as possible out that corner exit putting down the power without spinning out, you can tell how little grip there is out there.


You can see the telemetry here (attached), Turn 47 (blue, the previous lap) vs turn 48 (red)
He brakes too late in turn 1 and is compromised turn 2 exit, and the straight that is turn 3 until turn 4... when the incident happens.
You can see in Turn 4 the brake pedal being lifted and on corner exit / turn 5 you can see how much angle he uses on steering
 

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bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
18 GTI SE - 3 Pedals
You're presupposing that he's correcting for things that he didn't foresee. I'm not saying he sawed at the wheel of a car fully in control, with the only intent of slicing across Lewis's bow, I'm saying that Max intentionally went hot into the corner knowing that his exit would put him wide back across the front of a faster Lewis. They're pros, they're not going to just pull a Full Mansell all too often, but Max comes closer than most. Most of this season Max had the better car and was able to contain himself, seemingly the tables have turned and we're back to "old" Max.
 

hans611

Lost
Location
Miami
Car(s)
'16 Golf R 6MT
Oh, and thanks for coming to my town for a race, looking forward to being in yours next year. Gonna be nice having two US races. I haven't looked, but is Miami another Tilke track?

Racing wise, it doesn't look promising imo, its a parking lot... and compared to Cota, which is one of the best tracks in the world, its going to look even worse.
The tickets are crazy expensive, so its a no go this year for me... I think they went on sale as we where leaving the COTA track on Sunday and sold out that night...
 

hans611

Lost
Location
Miami
Car(s)
'16 Golf R 6MT
You're presupposing that he's correcting for things that he didn't foresee. I'm not saying he sawed at the wheel of a car fully in control, with the only intent of slicing across Lewis's bow, I'm saying that Max intentionally went hot into the corner knowing that his exit would put him wide back across the front of a faster Lewis. They're pros, they're not going to just pull a Full Mansell all too often, but Max comes closer than most. Most of this season Max had the better car and was able to contain himself, seemingly the tables have turned and we're back to "old" Max.

We are saying the same thing...... I just wrote this:

Verstappen brakes actually a bit earlier than Hamilton but then lets off the pedal really early as well..... So he can get ahead right before the corner and keep Hamilton on the outside....
At that point he is like 10kph faster but the front end is light and understeering on the dirty inside line...

Thats where the damage is done, that's where he ran Hamilton off the road... he knew he wasn't gonna make the corner, everyone knows that.

That guy from the video Driver 61 says exactly the same at 4:30....

I think your viewpoint on this is affected by this:

but he and Schumi certainly drove aggressively in a manner that is easy to see wasn't always in the best interest of their competitors.

Obviously not man?! What do you suggest they do? If he kept the position they would have asked him to give the position to Hamilton because he left the track and gained an advantage.
He entered the corner ahead so technically he owned the line ("always leaving da space" only applies on the straight) but when he then "ran wide", he gained the advantage.
Sometimes they give a warning first, the problem is on that weekend, for Sunday race day they choose not to police track limits.
In the end Hamilton breezed past him shortly after so the stewards didn't really need to think too hard after the fact.

You cant police it more than this, if you want to throw time penalties for this or worse, then other things would require race bans...
Almost no case is clean cut, there is gray areas. If you have to investigate every pass, there wont be much racing done....
less involvement by the stewards = less chances of making the wrong call and more racing.

How would you approach this? Even before all that, that run off area should be grass or gravel... that would fix 90% of the off track excursions for dubious reasons...
I doubt Max would have wanted to introduce a little rally stint to his Brazil GP.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
18 GTI SE - 3 Pedals
Racing wise, it doesn't look promising imo, its a parking lot... and compared to Cota, which is one of the best tracks in the world, its going to look even worse.
The tickets are crazy expensive, so its a no go this year for me... I think they went on sale as we where leaving the COTA track on Sunday and sold out that night...
Yeah, the layout doesn't sound promising. I went to Indy for the first year and that was an awful track. I still think that Weehawken would have made for a great course and Vegas would have been the better choice for a road course, but Miami will still be fun. The timing of COTA and the return of the Mexico City race has really changed the feel of our race though, the first few years were awesome with the Mexican crowd coming up en masse to cheer on Checo. I miss those days, now it just feels like Silverstone, but with better dentistry.
 

bentin

Autocross Champion
Location
Austin, TX
Car(s)
18 GTI SE - 3 Pedals
We are saying the same thing...... I just wrote this:



That guy from the video Driver 61 says exactly the same at 4:30....

I think your viewpoint on this is affected by this:



Obviously not man?! What do you suggest they do? If he kept the position they would have asked him to give the position to Hamilton because he left the track and gained an advantage.
He entered the corner ahead so technically he owned the line ("always leaving da space" only applies on the straight) but when he then "ran wide", he gained the advantage.
Sometimes they give a warning first, the problem is on that weekend, for Sunday race day they choose not to police track limits.
In the end Hamilton breezed past him shortly after so the stewards didn't really need to think too hard after the fact.

You cant police it more than this, if you want to throw time penalties for this or worse, then other things would require race bans...
Almost no case is clean cut, there is gray areas. If you have to investigate every pass, there wont be much racing done....
less involvement by the stewards = less chances of making the wrong call and more racing.

How would you approach this? Even before all that, that run off area should be grass or gravel... that would fix 90% of the off track excursions for dubious reasons...
I doubt Max would have wanted to introduce a little rally stint to his Brazil GP.
I'm not arguing for a penalty. My take is just that Max utilizes his car as a cudgel more than any other driver on the course (aside from Mazepan, but that's a talent deficiency.) There's aggressive, then there's reckless, Max is frequently the latter. With them being from different times and facing different drivers, I want to say that Senna and Schumi were more often than not calculating to only make it hard on their opponents, not actually looking to crash into them. Schumi occassionally went batshit though and that logic clearly went out the window. I just feel like good drivers err on the side of caution, Max errs on the side of Max alone. It's scary and unprofessional. I don't like his driving, never have, likely never will. Like I said, it's way too similar to the stupid stuff that Coulthard used to pull. I've never been so happy to see someone retire.

And yes, I absolutely agree that the track layout had something to do with it, some kitty litter in the run off areas would have made this all a non event. Brazil has always seemed like a track that's about 85% done and they just sort of gave up and went home when it was close enough. The cachaca beckons, we must be going!
 
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