2019 R rear camber problems

[doctorGolfR]

Your car would handle even better removing at least 1/2 of that rear toe...

I’ve read mixed reviews about that. Can you say more about why you think that? My car is daily driven and not tracked if that helps.

 

[tmw2442]

I just talk on the internet...

unless you would like me to quote myself earlier in the thread, answer(s) to your question maybe located there.

CSS swivels...to drive on a daily

 

[xXDavidCXx]

I’ve read mixed reviews about that. Can you say more about why you think that? My car is daily driven and not tracked if that helps.

Rear toe-in is for rear stability. Less rear-toe in = less stability.

 

[doctorGolfR]

Rear toe-in is for rear stability. Less rear-toe in = less stability.

Rear stability while cornering or while going in a straight line? I was trying to avoid the car being too skittish while driving straight.

 

[tmw2442]

He probably should leave his alignment the way it is....green on the machine. If he "says", he isn't experiencing any abnormal tire wear. His car handles "incredibility" with his alignment specs...so he probably shouldn't touch them.

He also is "sure" what was causing the thread posters issue, and lowering his car..."didn't change his camber.....at all." but did throw his toe out of "whack", but certainly, didn't affect his camber at all. It definitely needed increase rates of the eibach kit.

And he's a doctor....of golf Rs, so I trust him. All his statement align.

 

[doctorGolfR]

He probably should leave his alignment the way it is....green on the machine. If he "says", he isn't experiencing any abnormal tire wear. His car handles "incredibility" with his alignment specs...so he probably shouldn't touch them.

He also is "sure" what was causing the thread posters issue, and lowering his car..."didn't change his camber.....at all." but did throw his toe out of "whack", but certainly, didn't affect his camber at all. It definitely needed increase rates of the eibach kit.

And he's a doctor....of golf Rs, so I trust him. All his statement align.

Sigh. And…all your statements are filled with…unnecessary…ellipses…

Look at my alignment before lowering (first photo) and after the Eibach ProKit (second photo). The camber didn’t change but the toe did.

I’m not saying that specs should be green on the machine because clearly my front camber isn’t.

My tires don’t have any uneven wear, I’m not sure why you’re somehow questioning this statement. It’s weird. Why would I come on here to make that up?

Again, why would I come on here and make up that the driving experience improved for me with slightly stiffer springs/an extremely modest drop and better dampers?

And I actually am a physician, but not of Golf R’s

So you’re saying the OP’s reported issue was caused by -2 deg of camber in the rear? Come on.

 

[doctorGolfR]

I just talk on the internet...

unless you would like me to quote myself earlier in the thread, answer(s) to your question maybe located there.

CSS swivels...to drive on a daily

Yes, and it made quite a difference in the responsiveness of the car. You know people own the CSS and daily drive it, and stock CSS alignment specs have a touch of toe in front/rear. I know you disagree with VW on that, but the CSS did decently well with those specs. Not sure why you’re being an ass about it all?

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying I don’t think that small amount of toe in all around is going to eat tires like you’re suggesting. I haven’t tried zeroing the toe all around, I do know it’s a common recommendation for this chassis and many others. I have also read a lot about zero toe creating more wandering of the vehicle, which is why I opted for a slight amount of toe in.

I have no issues, but if zero toe would make things even better without losing straight line stability then I’d be all for it. I’m on here to learn and share what has worked for me from what I’ve learned. Not to insult people or be smug.

 

[scrllock]

I wouldn't bother with toe in, if the car is 'wandering' something else is off if you have zero toe. You'll have more tram-lining with the additional camber but toe isn't going to change that.

 

[doctorGolfR]

I wouldn't bother with toe in, if the car is 'wandering' something else is off if you have zero toe. You'll have more tram-lining with the additional camber but toe isn't going to change that.

I see! I have also read a handful of recommendations to zero the toe up front but have a small amount of toe-in, in the rear. @xXDavidCXx I’m quoting you as well from 2020 with advice that I believe is consistent with what you mentioned earlier in this thread. Here’s some examples:

 

[Mikejt1954]

Just for future reference in case someone is searching this: negative camber is not necessarily what kills tires; it's often incorrect toe specs (as was mentioned above.)

Obviously an egregious amount of negative camber will cause issues, but I don't believe that rear camber of -2.0 was causing your issues. I'm sure it was the toe. Do you have a print out from DAP?

Please always ask for a print out of your alignment so you can verify what you're being told is true. Also, I would advise to do some reading to understand how toe-in vs toe-out in the front vs rear can affect driving characteristics. From my understanding, zero toe in the rear can create some sense of instability but I have ever tried it.

In my case, here is my most recent alignment below. As you can see, the camber is around what you noted as being a "problem," which isn't necessarily true. I've been running these specs for over a year now without any increased tire wear. I have CSS knuckles up front hence the increased neg camber in the front.

I also lowered the car on Eibach Prokit Springs, which surprisingly didn't change the camber at all it seems--I guess that's how minimal of a drop they provide while adding a much needed increase in spring rates (for me). The lowering did throw the toe out of whack, however, which is what you see in the "before measurements." I also rotate my tires ~every 5-6000 miles. The car handles incredibly.

View attachment 284436

I’m sorry, but 2 degrees of neg rear camber wore out my rear tires. The outsides of both were perfectly fine. Toe does not cause that. And my before toe was spot on. If toe is out of alignment, it will cause a rippling west across the entire tread surface. Nothing like that on my tires. Thanks for your input.

 

[krs]

I’m sorry, but 2 degrees of neg rear camber wore out my rear tires. The outsides of both were perfectly fine. Toe does not cause that. And my before toe was spot on. If toe is out of alignment, it will cause a rippling west across the entire tread surface. Nothing like that on my tires. Thanks for your input.

How much negative camber was on your fronts? Any abnormal wear there?

I have right at -2.0° in the rear, and my street tires are not worn like you said yours were.

 

[doctorGolfR]

I’m sorry, but 2 degrees of neg rear camber wore out my rear tires. The outsides of both were perfectly fine. Toe does not cause that. And my before toe was spot on. If toe is out of alignment, it will cause a rippling west across the entire tread surface. Nothing like that on my tires. Thanks for your input.

Ah, I didn't know your toe was in spec as you didn't mention that or provide any alignment sheets. What tires were you running? Were you tracking the car?

 

[doctorGolfR]

How much negative camber was on your fronts? Any abnormal wear there?

I have right at -2.0° in the rear, and my street tires are not worn like you said yours were.

Same as me with -1.8 in the rear, which is what is confusing to me about the OP's situation. I'd still love to see the alignment sheet.

 

[tmw2442]

On the factory alignment(spec)...it's not just a product of camber....or just a product of toe in.

VWs stock alignment specs don't care about tire wear, they are designed to make the car as stable as possible (at speed) for the average shitty driver on the road today.

Green on the machine, means nothing (F all) for tire wear and for handling. Posting alignment spec sheet after alignment spec sheet showing stock specs, is mostly meaningless.

The CSS alignment spec, being mentioned on here or pointed to as some sort of benchmark... is not what they where using on the timed lap in german holy grail of a laptime on the green hell. I think it would be a complete misconception to think VW does record attempt laps, on the factory alignment specs...or to point to a factory alignment spec for a massmarket car as authoritative. To come on here an assert because the CSS spec...is this way...it must be correct, is not necessarily going to help your case, especially when there is a not a basic understanding yet for what toe in vs toe out does for the vehicles overall traction or stability. Doesn't put people in the right state of mind for receiving or processing what information or help is attempting to be transmitted via posts on the internet. I never said it was just camber or just toe causing a wear issue. And insinuating I am a smug asshole for point out, what is either a completely subjective statement in your post or opposite of true...does not make me an asshole. You can put the same car...on the same alignment machine...on different days and get different measurements....espically if the techs process is different. If you lowered the car...and toe was out of "whack" your camber changed even if the machine necessarily, didn't show it.

Toe is the primary factor, but both combined(with camber of -1.5 plus) leads to the tire wear the thread pattern the poster is describing.

Drive your car 30 mins to an hour....use an IR thermometer to take the temp of your tires in 3 zones, inner, center, outer....the temp difference between the zones will tell you "where" the wear is taking place. More heat means more wear...

I do not care how you "feel" your alignment is...your feelings don't give you good,bad, or abnormal tire wear. Only data and observations matter.

Drive it steady state on the highway....take a reading, drive it on your favor fast road get a reading.

If on the highway jaunt, your temps are no more than 10 ish F difference from inner to outer, your alignment is great for that....situation...does that mean you'll have good wear in another (track/fast road...)...No

You can have a mild alignment with good wear for street driving, but shitty for fast road or track....you can have a great track alignment, that sucks for tire longevity on the street. The car is objectively better with less than factory amount of rear toe, for both handling and tire wear characteristics. It's why most of anyone here with an kinda of performance driving is steering people that way, making the suggestion. from zero to slight toe in/out (1/32 to 1/16 either way) depending on what the driver prefers or specific mod'd suspension configuration.

For a daily driven street application, I would recommend camber around 1.5 to 1.8 deg tops...with 1/2 of the factory rear toe removed, if you have any car control experience, be honest/objective in your self assessment...you can go all the way to a 1/16 toe out, but all that depends on your specific car setup...if you have a rear bar and a rear bar only....I would not recommend going less than a 1/16(inch) toe in....but that is just my opinion.

There is no ideal alignment for every situation, its an standard engineering triangle problem(good, fast, cheap....you only get two of the three criteria at any given time)....just like the people that get on here an obsess about brake pads.

"I want..." a pad that is easy on rotors, quiet, good bite, works in the cold and hot, is cheap, has no dust, and lasts forever... its impossible...same deal with alignments...."I want..."

200 tread wear and below summer tires, will be more resistance to the cupping wear from the factory alignment that say a factory all season, because more aggressive alignment specs are taken into consideration of those type of tires designs. (Generally...) If your main concern is just making the tire on your daily last as long as possible, zero toe, with less than 1.5 degrees of camber is the way to do that.

 

[doctorGolfR]

On the factory alignment(spec)...it's not just a product of camber....or just a product of toe in.

VWs stock alignment specs don't care about tire wear, they are designed to make the car as stable as possible (at speed) for the average shitty driver on the road today.

Green on the machine, means nothing (F all) for tire wear and for handling. Posting alignment spec sheet after alignment spec sheet showing stock specs, is mostly meaningless.

The CSS alignment spec, being mentioned on here or pointed to as some sort of benchmark... is not what they where using on the timed lap in german holy grail of a laptime on the green hell. I think it would be a complete misconception to think VW does record attempt laps, on the factory alignment specs...or to point to a factory alignment spec for a massmarket car as authoritative. To come on here an assert because the CSS spec...is this way...it must be correct, is not necessarily going to help your case, especially when there is a not a basic understanding yet for what toe in vs toe out does for the vehicles overall traction or stability. Doesn't put people in the right state of mind for receiving or processing what information or help is attempting to be transmitted via posts on the internet. I never said it was just camber or just toe causing a wear issue. And insinuating I am a smug asshole for point out, what is either a completely subjective statement in your post or opposite of true...does not make me an asshole. You can put the same car...on the same alignment machine...on different days and get different measurements....espically if the techs process is different. If you lowered the car...and toe was out of "whack" your camber changed even if the machine necessarily, didn't show it.

Toe is the primary factor, but both combined(with camber of -1.5 plus) leads to the tire wear the thread pattern the poster is describing.

Drive your car 30 mins to an hour....use an IR thermometer to take the temp of your tires in 3 zones, inner, center, outer....the temp difference between the zones will tell you "where" the wear is taking place. More heat means more wear...

I do not care how you "feel" your alignment is...your feelings don't give you good,bad, or abnormal tire wear. Only data and observations matter.

Drive it steady state on the highway....take a reading, drive it on your favor fast road get a reading.

If on the highway jaunt, your temps are no more than 10 ish F difference from inner to outer, your alignment is great for that....situation...does that mean you'll have good wear in another (track/fast road...)...No

You can have a mild alignment with good wear for street driving, but shitty for fast road or track....you can have a great track alignment, that sucks for tire longevity on the street. The car is objectively better with less than factory amount of rear toe, for both handling and tire wear characteristics. It's why most of anyone here with an kinda of performance driving is steering people that way, making the suggestion. from zero to slight toe in/out (1/32 to 1/16 either way) depending on what the driver prefers or specific mod'd suspension configuration.

For a daily driven street application, I would recommend camber around 1.5 to 1.8 deg tops...with 1/2 of the factory rear toe removed, if you have any car control experience, be honest/objective in your self assessment...you can go all the way to a 1/16 toe out, but all that depends on your specific car setup...if you have a rear bar and a rear bar only....I would not recommend going less than a 1/16(inch) toe in....but that is just my opinion.

There is no ideal alignment for every situation, its an standard engineering triangle problem(good, fast, cheap....you only get two of the three criteria at any given time)....just like the people that get on here an obsess about brake pads.

"I want..." a pad that is easy on rotors, quiet, good bite, works in the cold and hot, is cheap, has no dust, and lasts forever... its impossible...same deal with alignments...."I want..."

200 tread wear and below summer tires, will be more resistance to the cupping wear from the factory alignment that say a factory all season, because more aggressive alignment specs are taken into consideration of those type of tires designs. (Generally...) If your main concern is just making the tire on your daily last as long as possible, zero toe, with less than 1.5 degrees of camber is the way to do that.

Thank you for a [mostly] non-smug and educational response!

To be clear, you questioned the camber not changing on my application after lowering with Eibach ProKit springs. I simply posted the alignment sheet to show that this in fact was the case. Not sure how that translates into posting "alignment sheet after alignment sheet."

Again, to be clear, I made two statements: one being that I have not experienced any abnormal tire wear from OBSERVATION, and I also feel as if the car handles incredibly well for me and how I drive. You're harping on the second statement and ignoring the first.

You're educated about this stuff, but you're also an asshole. The two are not mutually exclusive here.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge nonetheless!