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2019 GTI Requires 508 spec 0W-20 oil

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
But it isn't EXACTLY the same motor now is it? Different rings, different oil pump, there is just enough different to warrant different required oil. Yes one can argue the 0w20 oil is for fuel economy, I would agree. Yet this doesn't explain why APR and Unitronic both recommend the use of 508 in their stage I and II and some Stage 3 Builds??

Oil now a days is much better than it was. Heck Formula 1 race teams run a 10W in some of their cars, granted they get rebuilt after every race, but the point being, there is an assumption that the Ow20 can't protect the engine? I disagree with that. If you track your car? Get an Oil cooler, if your engine is totally modified with pistons, rods and what not?? Then go by what the builder says. Stock everything? Use What VW says. If your Tuned, use what the Tuners recommend. At this point. it all points to 508 for 99.9% of the folks out there.
The tuner recommend it by default, because manufacturer does.

0w-20 would be water by the end of a track day.

For street, no reason to run anything but what is recommended. That doesn't mean 5w-40 is going to harm your car.
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
But it isn't EXACTLY the same motor now is it? Different rings, different oil pump, there is just enough different to warrant different required oil. Yes one can argue the 0w20 oil is for fuel economy, I would agree. Yet this doesn't explain why APR and Unitronic both recommend the use of 508 in their stage I and II and some Stage 3 Builds??

Oil now a days is much better than it was. Heck Formula 1 race teams run a 10W in some of their cars, granted they get rebuilt after every race, but the point being, there is an assumption that the Ow20 can't protect the engine? I disagree with that. If you track your car? Get an Oil cooler, if your engine is totally modified with pistons, rods and what not?? Then go by what the builder says. Stock everything? Use What VW says. If your Tuned, use what the Tuners recommend. At this point. it all points to 508 for 99.9% of the folks out there.
What basis are you going with the different rings? I have heard about the oil pump. Keep in mind any way you slice it....20W doesn't have the same metal on metal protection as a 30 or 40W b/c...engineering/science but...I agree, normal use, the CAFE-based 20W is just fine. Anythning more ,I'd be running a 30 or 40W.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
What basis are you going with the different rings? I have heard about the oil pump. Keep in mind any way you slice it....20W doesn't have the same metal on metal protection as a 30 or 40W b/c...engineering/science but...I agree, normal use, the CAFE-based 20W is just fine. Anythning more ,I'd be running a 30 or 40W.
Spec Miata guys use it in sprint races and they gain 2 or 3 extra hp. That makes a difference in a spec series. They also rebuild the engines every year and they don't produce the heat our engines do.
 

Jeffs2013GTI

Drag Race Newbie
What basis are you going with the different rings? I have heard about the oil pump. Keep in mind any way you slice it....20W doesn't have the same metal on metal protection as a 30 or 40W b/c...engineering/science but...I agree, normal use, the CAFE-based 20W is just fine. Anythning more ,I'd be running a 30 or 40W.
Basis of the shop here in SD that builds TSI's??? Rings look different, even though part numbers are shared. Not uncommon. Especially in the VAG world.

If you want to use the 40w that is fine. It's your car. If your tuned and all and it makes you feel better. I just would like to see some proof that the 0w20 destroys your car? I yet have not seen anything more than high oil temps on track from people, which can easily be remedied by installing an external oil cooler? So show me some proof? If you can't? Then your argument isn't any better or worse than mine.

In all the cars I have tracked over the years. What I mean by "tracked" isn't a once a year thing, I'm talking every weekend different events, SCCA events and what not over a span of over 30 yrs. I yet have not ran an oil that wasn't spec'd by the manufacturer. Only time I would change grades is if an engine builder who built my motor told me to, or if I was running something like WMI. In that case a different oil would be almost a requirement.

I have spoken to guys form APR and Unitronic on the phone. They feel pretty confident in the 508 oils, and on their race cars run it with oil coolers. APR actually had a race car that had an oil related failure that was running the 40w. What exactly caused the failure? I am not sure, we didn't get into it, it was just mentioned. So if your running a 502 oil in your VW requiring 508, your out of warranty, done tons of mods, and you feel it makes you feel better to have the 40w in there then by all means. I just don't like to hear people say 20w will damage your engine when tuned or what not and have absolutely zero proof. That's all.

Jeff
 

Jeffs2013GTI

Drag Race Newbie
The tuner recommend it by default, because manufacturer does.

0w-20 would be water by the end of a track day.

For street, no reason to run anything but what is recommended. That doesn't mean 5w-40 is going to harm your car.
Depends on how much track time we are talking? If your running an external oil cooler and allow for cool down laps, which most do anyway with any type of forced induction?? I would always change my oil after every track weekend in my past cars no matter what oil I was running at the time. Just for my own peace of mind. Seems the Europeans have no issues running 508 on the Autobahn for long periods of time, or at the "Ring"? Yet we hare in the States need a 502 oil? Just don't get it.

If your running a 40w your car is running good, your happy, and all is well? Awesome, its just in most cases? The 20w will do the same thing. There are always times when you vary and I mentioned that before. If your running WMI, or even E85 or any alcohol fuel that can break down the 20w fast, but that is not due to it being a poor oil, just not one designed for the type of fuel you are running. That is a whole different story. If your doing all that? You have nothing to lose anyone. Most are still in warranty, and may want to keep their cars for 20 yrs will have less issues in the long run using the 20w. Why? Quicker cold starts, less wear by said quicker cold starts where 80% of engine wear occurs anyway, less carbon deposits, better MPG and HP. Its a win win for the average GTI owner.

Jeff
 

tigeo

Autocross Champion
Basis of the shop here in SD that builds TSI's??? Rings look different, even though part numbers are shared. Not uncommon. Especially in the VAG world.

If you want to use the 40w that is fine. It's your car. If your tuned and all and it makes you feel better. I just would like to see some proof that the 0w20 destroys your car? I yet have not seen anything more than high oil temps on track from people, which can easily be remedied by installing an external oil cooler? So show me some proof? If you can't? Then your argument isn't any better or worse than mine.

In all the cars I have tracked over the years. What I mean by "tracked" isn't a once a year thing, I'm talking every weekend different events, SCCA events and what not over a span of over 30 yrs. I yet have not ran an oil that wasn't spec'd by the manufacturer. Only time I would change grades is if an engine builder who built my motor told me to, or if I was running something like WMI. In that case a different oil would be almost a requirement.

I have spoken to guys form APR and Unitronic on the phone. They feel pretty confident in the 508 oils, and on their race cars run it with oil coolers. APR actually had a race car that had an oil related failure that was running the 40w. What exactly caused the failure? I am not sure, we didn't get into it, it was just mentioned. So if your running a 502 oil in your VW requiring 508, your out of warranty, done tons of mods, and you feel it makes you feel better to have the 40w in there then by all means. I just don't like to hear people say 20w will damage your engine when tuned or what not and have absolutely zero proof. That's all.

Jeff
Jeff, I think this has gotten a bit off track. If I had a GTI (I don't...I have a GSW that has the 502 approval for the oil recommendation so 40W or a few 30s) and drove it normally I would use the 0W20/508 without concern. If I tracked it or generally "beat the shit out of it", I'd run the 40W 502 or a 30W 504 - 504 is what the R calls for keep in mind and 504s are "heavy" 30s and the 502s are "light" 40s so v. similar in their properties. The proof you require as you state is not obtainable. In that case, may I suggest just running Supertech from Walmart basic syn 5W30 as it likely doesn't make any difference in the typical ownership time most folks here have their cars. In fact, it probably makes no difference over a 200K run....I actually run the Supertech from Wallyworld in 2 of my vehicles..works fine. We are car enthusiasts and as such, many take this stuff to the nth degree and things like oil viscosity make a difference, even if only perceived. The NGP and Unitronic teams running the TCR GTIs are in-fact running Liquimoly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W40/502 oils, not 508 0W20s per their social media posts - not sure which cars are running the 508. The issue isn't oil temp - it's HTHS under those condition and no matter what, the data sheets for these oils support that a 30 or 40W 504/502 oil has a higher HTHS (3.5+) than a 508 0W20 (~2.5) and for that, that's what I'd run in those conditions to gain whatever extra protection I could b/c that's what my gut says. I in no way stated anywhere here (that I recall) that you will damage your GTI tracking it with 0W20 oil.
 
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GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
Basis of the shop here in SD that builds TSI's??? Rings look different, even though part numbers are shared. Not uncommon. Especially in the VAG world.

If you want to use the 40w that is fine. It's your car. If your tuned and all and it makes you feel better. I just would like to see some proof that the 0w20 destroys your car? I yet have not seen anything more than high oil temps on track from people, which can easily be remedied by installing an external oil cooler? So show me some proof? If you can't? Then your argument isn't any better or worse than mine.

In all the cars I have tracked over the years. What I mean by "tracked" isn't a once a year thing, I'm talking every weekend different events, SCCA events and what not over a span of over 30 yrs. I yet have not ran an oil that wasn't spec'd by the manufacturer. Only time I would change grades is if an engine builder who built my motor told me to, or if I was running something like WMI. In that case a different oil would be almost a requirement.

I have spoken to guys form APR and Unitronic on the phone. They feel pretty confident in the 508 oils, and on their race cars run it with oil coolers. APR actually had a race car that had an oil related failure that was running the 40w. What exactly caused the failure? I am not sure, we didn't get into it, it was just mentioned. So if your running a 502 oil in your VW requiring 508, your out of warranty, done tons of mods, and you feel it makes you feel better to have the 40w in there then by all means. I just don't like to hear people say 20w will damage your engine when tuned or what not and have absolutely zero proof. That's all.

Jeff
Got it, so you have zero actual evidence that the rings are different or revised.

Run whatever oil you want, but your entire post is BS. No one here has claimed 0w-20 will destroy a tuned engine. Everyone has said run what VW recommends on the street. The only thing that people have pointed out is that VW went to 0w-20 for gas mileage reasons, the new oil pump was too increase oil pressure with the thin oil, even then, VW screwed it the tuning in 2019 and didn't account for the vvt system not working correctly with 0w-20, so don't fall too hard on the "vw engineers know best" sword.

Those that track run heavier oil because it runs cooler and 0w-20 would be water after an hour at 270+ degrees.

Stop arguing against imaginary arguments no one is making. And if you want proof that 0w-20 oils are inferior at protecting your engine at higher temps, here you go. Now shut up.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
 

shortyb

Autocross Newbie
Location
Upstate SC
Car(s)
Felon Taxi,Dad Wagon
What some here aren't taking into account with those that desire to run something thicker than a 20wt, even for regular ole day to day driving, is these engine are notorious fuel diluters. Especially run at the typical low as they can RPMs for fuel economy sake. The forced induction at these lower RPMs with low tension rings can induce fuel that will seriously effect film strength. And with an already thin 20wt., protection can degrade exponentially.

Now 508 does address this somewhat with higher oxidation and nitration standards to account for more fuel in the oil, however, it cannot overcome simple chemistry and physics. Higher viscosity oils will "buy you time" so to speak as they can take on this added fuel and still provide sufficient film strength and protective viscosity until the "normal" oil change interval is reached. Also, those that see track time would definitely benefit from added oil cooling, but a good bit of viscosity breakdown in these situations come from pressure and shear. No oil cooler is going to fix that, only a higher viscosity oil will help.

VW did the 20wt for the primary reason of meeting CAFE standards. They kinda screwed the pooch in the beginning by failing to take into account the required oil pressure for VVT and thus the different oil pumps were speced. Still doesn't mean that the lower visc. oil at a slightly higher pressure will provide the best overall protection as there are many other factors at play here. A higher visc. oil will better deal with these factors. No matter as we are all going to be driving EVs soon :rolleyes:.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
What some here aren't taking into account with those that desire to run something thicker than a 20wt, even for regular ole day to day driving, is these engine are notorious fuel diluters. Especially run at the typical low as they can RPMs for fuel economy sake. The forced induction at these lower RPMs with low tension rings can induce fuel that will seriously effect film strength. And with an already thin 20wt., protection can degrade exponentially.

Now 508 does address this somewhat with higher oxidation and nitration standards to account for more fuel in the oil, however, it cannot overcome simple chemistry and physics. Higher viscosity oils will "buy you time" so to speak as they can take on this added fuel and still provide sufficient film strength and protective viscosity until the "normal" oil change interval is reached. Also, those that see track time would definitely benefit from added oil cooling, but a good bit of viscosity breakdown in these situations come from pressure and shear. No oil cooler is going to fix that, only a higher viscosity oil will help.

VW did the 20wt for the primary reason of meeting CAFE standards. They kinda screwed the pooch in the beginning by failing to take into account the required oil pressure for VVT and thus the different oil pumps were speced. Still doesn't mean that the lower visc. oil at a slightly higher pressure will provide the best overall protection as there are many other factors at play here. A higher visc. oil will better deal with these factors. No matter as we are all going to be driving EVs soon :rolleyes:.
Imma still run 5w-40 in my ID.4.
 

DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
I have a 19 GTI that calls for the 0w20 spec.

It will have seen 10 days on track by the end of this year.

I run 5w40 because I see 275F 3-5 laps in at VIR, and this is what nearly everyone who runs continuous laps on track runs.

To be fair, lower weight oil would likely cause slightly lower temps… but I’m not taking a $5000 gamble on finding out it’s not sufficient.

The thicker oil has better HTHS and film thickness so in the (not unlikely) circumstance the oil pickup tube is sucking air for a split second, there’s a chance the existing oil may protect better.

For the few manufacturers who endorse tracking their cars(GM, Ford), they recommend a higher Xw50 or Xw60 wt oil vs the typical 10w40 or whatever. VW doesn’t endorse anything as such so I’d take that for what it’s worth.

For the record if it weren’t for tracking (and just autocrossing at most) I’d have zero problem running an approved 0w20 oil.
 

GTIfan99

Autocross Champion
Location
FL
I have a 19 GTI that calls for the 0w20 spec.

It will have seen 10 days on track by the end of this year.

I run 5w40 because I see 275F 3-5 laps in at VIR, and this is what nearly everyone who runs continuous laps on track runs.

To be fair, lower weight oil would likely cause slightly lower temps… but I’m not taking a $5000 gamble on finding out it’s not sufficient.

The thicker oil has better HTHS and film thickness so in the (not unlikely) circumstance the oil pickup tube is sucking air for a split second, there’s a chance the existing oil may protect better.

For the few manufacturers who endorse tracking their cars(GM, Ford), they recommend a higher Xw50 or Xw60 wt oil vs the typical 10w40 or whatever. VW doesn’t endorse anything as such so I’d take that for what it’s worth.

For the record if it weren’t for tracking (and just autocrossing at most) I’d have zero problem running an approved 0w20 oil.
Turn your heat on full blast, with it set to vents, close the center vents, them aim both outside vents out the open front windows.

On really hot days, over 90 degrees in Floriderp, I was getting oil up to 289, so coolant was likely pretty hot too, and I ended up killing warping the housing of the aux water pump, and killed. With heat on full blast, I lowered it oil temps to 265 to 268.
 

DerHase

Autocross Champion
Location
Hampton Roads, VA
Car(s)
2019 GTI Rabbit
Turn your heat on full blast, with it set to vents, close the center vents, them aim both outside vents out the open front windows.

On really hot days, over 90 degrees in Floriderp, I was getting oil up to 289, so coolant was likely pretty hot too, and I ended up killing warping the housing of the aux water pump, and killed. With heat on full blast, I lowered it oil temps to 265 to 268.

That was with the heat on blast 😅

Did it in February with TSCC out of sheer convenience (was cold!), but absolutely necessary in June or July when I ran with Track Advantage.

I did log temps and coolant was never a concern. Got to like 220F or so but I’d not be concerned until it hit 225F with plans to pull back as it goes towards 230F.

Fans don’t come on in many cars until 225-230F (Minis come to mind) so I’d not worry up to that point.
 

morricus

Go Kart Champion
Location
Dripping Springs, TX
Car(s)
2019 GTI
I have a 2019 S, bare bones. At 1000 miles, changed oil to 0w40 Triax, threw GIAC Stage 1 tune, went to track. A few thousand miles later, threw Stage 2 on and added oil cooler. Kept changing oil every 5k miles with Triax. At about 20k miles, joined a private track, started using Mobil 1 Racing 0W50. Change every 2000 miles. I track this car almost every weekend. Its at 30k miles now.

I've paid zero attention to 508, 504, 67.2 or whatever VW is calling for.

I have paid zero attention to the fact VW was requiring 0W30 for my wifes 2021 Atlas that has the SAME engine as my GTI. Its been APR tuned since 500 miles, Triax 0w40 oil changes every 5000 miles and just hit 50k miles. Problems, none.

I paid zero attention that my wifes 2015 GMC Yukon called for 0w20 and just ran different flavors of 0W40 for 120k miles.

I like thicker oil. Its hot in Texas, I beat the crap out of my cars, it makes me happy. I personally believe that it makes virtually no difference what oil you put in, it'll all pretty much work well these days. I also personally believe that 0w20 is silly, but whatever, who cares. Run what makes you feel good, it'll likely all have the same result.
 

shortyb

Autocross Newbie
Location
Upstate SC
Car(s)
Felon Taxi,Dad Wagon
Well that sums it up pretty well and puts a nice big bow on it. There is the science and engineering side to oil choice, then there is the feels good side. Whichever you choose, you'll be fine. Just enjoy your car.
 
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