2019 GTI 6MT Stalling Issue

[historyteacher]

That's a new scenario, I think - no stalling for ~ 8K miles, then an oil change seems to brings it about again? Can you tell us what weight/spec oil was used?

I used the OEM Castrol Professional 0W-20 from ShopDAP. Added just under 6qt. Double checked the oil when I got home and it is right in the middle of the notches.

 

[We4nolans]

So I guess I’ll add my story to this thread. Bought the car in Dec; stalled once in Jan (less than 1k miles) but chalked it up to my getting used to the clutch take up. Happened a second time last week, after doing an oil change (around 9k miles), and then happened twice this morning on the way to work. Happened another couple times on the way home, so I decided to stop at the dealer. Made an appointment for next Friday for a scan, figured there was no rush since there isn’t a fix, and it was the easiest day for me to take off. I thought maybe it was only happening with the clutch in so I adjusted to let the clutch out as soon as it was in neutral, but it seems to happen either way, since I reproduced it 2-3 on the way home from the dealer.

It is definitely a safety issue since it seems to be happening when in neutral whether the clutch is in or out. They definitely need a fix soon.

We haven’t had a stall since January and put on an additional 6500 miles. In the next month we’ll be going in for an oil change, hopefully we don’t have stalling return.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[zinfamous]

^and you're also in Texas, managed to skip the entire ...hottest summer recorded by humans....without the stalls that a lot of "hotter climate" people were getting during that time.

It's very interesting.

It really does seem to be multiple issues across the model year that are affecting a couple different sub-sections of vehicles, and all with the same final symptom of "stalling in neutral (with varied conditions)"

 

[historyteacher]

^and you're also in Texas, managed to skip the entire ...hottest summer recorded by humans....without the stalls that a lot of "hotter climate" people were getting during that time.

It's very interesting.

It really does seem to be multiple issues across the model year that are affecting a couple different sub-sections of vehicles, and all with the same final symptom of "stalling in neutral (with varied conditions)"

Yep, that’s why today was so bizarre and frustrating. I went from no stalls for 9mos, and then bam, I get like 6 total today. The only other thing, although I don’t know how this would effect it. I didn’t drive it for Friday, Saturday, and most of Sunday because we were out of town. I went to get dinner last night and no issues.
They need to find a solution fast though, pretty sure they aren’t going to let me rent a car while they sort it out. And after today, I don’t think I can deal with half a dozen stalls every day because there are a number of lights on my 25min drive, and afternoon does have some stop and go.

 

[Vmax911]

I used the OEM Castrol Professional 0W-20 from ShopDAP. Added just under 6qt. Double checked the oil when I got home and it is right in the middle of the notches.

Were you previously on the factory fill?

 

[historyteacher]

Were you previously on the factory fill?

I was. I know I probably should have changed closer to 7k miles but just didn’t get to it, so it was right around 9k.
That is something I thought was kind of funky too, that it happened after I put in brand new OEM oil, which would kind of support the low oil weight theory. But even when the car was new I only had the one stall, with probably less than 500mi on the car.

 

[historyteacher]

Someone did post this to the comments on my Mk7 owners FB post (he couldn’t remember where he copied it from though):

“VW has had this engine in the US since 2015 in the GTI, and this only affects the 2019 GTI and GLI. The basic engine architecture has been in use far longer in a range of cars in the US.

At this point, the camshaft wear looks like it's related to the VVT not getting enough oil pressure due to the switch to 0w-20 oil in 2019. It's causing a large gap in the ECU's requested timing values and the actual timing value.
Has nothing to do with the fuel, as the car is set up to run on 87 octane in the US and we get 20 less hp than European models and the stalling issue is happening in Europe too.

NHTSA has just opened an official investigation.

My sons 2018 GTI doesn't have this issue with the same engine. My 2019 GTI did have the issue. VW has swapped my car back to 5w-40 oil and reset at the adaptions to close the gap between requested and actual timing values. I'm hoping this resolves the issue, though I doubt switching to 5w-40 oil will be an acceptable longterm solution for the NHTSA as it could affect gas mileage and emissions.

They added one tooth to the oil pump gearing to increase oil pressure in the 2019's, but it doesn't appear to have worked.

I'd imagine we'll see a recall for a software update and new oil pump, as that's the only way I can see NHTSA signing off on a fix.

Pretty much confirmed at this point. They didn't account for the lighter oil, which causes a big difference between what the ECU is requesting for timing and what timing is. The valve timing was getting stuck, due to the lighter oil and unbroken in engines.

They're looking at an ECU fix, but I think they're going to need to get more pressure to the variable valve timing.

The 2019s camshafts are different with hollow pressed on lobes.”

 

[FactoryMatt]

Someone did post this to the comments on my Mk7 owners FB post (he couldn’t remember where he copied it from though):

“VW has had this engine in the US since 2015 in the GTI, and this only affects the 2019 GTI and GLI. The basic engine architecture has been in use far longer in a range of cars in the US.

At this point, the camshaft wear looks like it's related to the VVT not getting enough oil pressure due to the switch to 0w-20 oil in 2019. It's causing a large gap in the ECU's requested timing values and the actual timing value.
Has nothing to do with the fuel, as the car is set up to run on 87 octane in the US and we get 20 less hp than European models and the stalling issue is happening in Europe too.

NHTSA has just opened an official investigation.

My sons 2018 GTI doesn't have this issue with the same engine. My 2019 GTI did have the issue. VW has swapped my car back to 5w-40 oil and reset at the adaptions to close the gap between requested and actual timing values. I'm hoping this resolves the issue, though I doubt switching to 5w-40 oil will be an acceptable longterm solution for the NHTSA as it could affect gas mileage and emissions.

They added one tooth to the oil pump gearing to increase oil pressure in the 2019's, but it doesn't appear to have worked.

I'd imagine we'll see a recall for a software update and new oil pump, as that's the only way I can see NHTSA signing off on a fix.

Pretty much confirmed at this point. They didn't account for the lighter oil, which causes a big difference between what the ECU is requesting for timing and what timing is. The valve timing was getting stuck, due to the lighter oil and unbroken in engines.

They're looking at an ECU fix, but I think they're going to need to get more pressure to the variable valve timing.

The 2019s camshafts are different with hollow pressed on lobes.”

this is great info. I wonder why the issue is 100x more prevalent in 6MTs than DSG though. and why and to what extent camshaft timing even matters at low idle, when stall is most likely to occur.

 

[dietcokefiend]

this is great info. I wonder why the issue is 100x more prevalent in 6MTs than DSG though. and why and to what extent camshaft timing even matters at low idle, when stall is most likely to occur.

If you drive around a DSG car for long enough I think the stalling difference becomes pretty apparent. The DSG/ECU work together and the engine anticipates the downshifts and the movement to idle. It blips as it downshifts, and in sport mode idle RPM sits like 200RPM higher.

I think for the spirited driver, the DSG model pads the idle speed just enough in the crucial moment as it retards the timing that stalling doesn't occur.

As to the camshaft, I'm not sure 2019 is a different design. The B-series engine definitely has a new design. But from AA's car getting the camshaft swapped very early on showed us, the part number aligned with the same one used back to 2017 or so.

 

[historyteacher]

If you drive around a DSG car for long enough I think the stalling difference becomes pretty apparent. The DSG/ECU work together and the engine anticipates the downshifts and the movement to idle. It blips as it downshifts, and in sport mode idle RPM sits like 200RPM higher.

I think for the spirited driver, the DSG model pads the idle speed just enough in the crucial moment as it retards the timing that stalling doesn't occur.

As to the camshaft, I'm not sure 2019 is a different design. The B-series engine definitely has a new design. But from AA's car getting the camshaft swapped very early on showed us, the part number aligned with the same one used back to 2017 or so.

So as a spirited driver myself, you’re saying I should have gone with the DSG? ?
In all seriousness though, is the DSG engaging for daily, spirited driving?

 

[Inka Orange]

Someone did post this to the comments on my Mk7 owners FB post (he couldn’t remember where he copied it from though):

“VW has had this engine in the US since 2015 in the GTI, and this only affects the 2019 GTI and GLI. The basic engine architecture has been in use far longer in a range of cars in the US.

At this point, the camshaft wear looks like it's related to the VVT not getting enough oil pressure due to the switch to 0w-20 oil in 2019. It's causing a large gap in the ECU's requested timing values and the actual timing value.
Has nothing to do with the fuel, as the car is set up to run on 87 octane in the US and we get 20 less hp than European models and the stalling issue is happening in Europe too.

NHTSA has just opened an official investigation.

My sons 2018 GTI doesn't have this issue with the same engine. My 2019 GTI did have the issue. VW has swapped my car back to 5w-40 oil and reset at the adaptions to close the gap between requested and actual timing values. I'm hoping this resolves the issue, though I doubt switching to 5w-40 oil will be an acceptable longterm solution for the NHTSA as it could affect gas mileage and emissions.

They added one tooth to the oil pump gearing to increase oil pressure in the 2019's, but it doesn't appear to have worked.

I'd imagine we'll see a recall for a software update and new oil pump, as that's the only way I can see NHTSA signing off on a fix.

Pretty much confirmed at this point. They didn't account for the lighter oil, which causes a big difference between what the ECU is requesting for timing and what timing is. The valve timing was getting stuck, due to the lighter oil and unbroken in engines.

They're looking at an ECU fix, but I think they're going to need to get more pressure to the variable valve timing.

The 2019s camshafts are different with hollow pressed on lobes.”

Interesting - I didn't know that camshaft wear was part of the issue along with valve timing. If so, I would think that would affect both manual and DSG cars.

 

[dietcokefiend]

I traded in my 6MT and went for a DSG Rabbit (avoids stalling issues coming up and my wife can drive it now).



I have about 250k of stickshift driving under my belt, but the newer the car the less enjoyable the shifting became. Working against the delay valve, odd rev mismatching (some days idle just wants to drop faster than the delay valve will let you get into gear) and the impact of AC on killing lowend performance moving through a hilly area.


DSG completely bypasses all of those problems. I can drive in manual mode, use sport mode to smoke cars from stop lights, or keep it in D and pretend I'm brain dead dropping kids off at daycare far sooner than my brain has the proper amounts of caffeine in place.


Lack of footwork takes a bit to get used to if you want that in your day to day grind.

 

[FactoryMatt]

So as a spirited driver myself, you’re saying I should have gone with the DSG? ?
In all seriousness though, is the DSG engaging for daily, spirited driving?

it's ok. i still really really miss our Fiesta ST. the GTI, it's really hard to get a feel for engine load. the throttle is responsive, and the shifts are quick enough, but you just feel a little disconnected. The FiST was like a go kart and you always knew where you were with boost and load.

 

[historyteacher]

it's ok. i still really really miss our Fiesta ST. the GTI, it's really hard to get a feel for engine load. the throttle is responsive, and the shifts are quick enough, but you just feel a little disconnected. The FiST was like a go kart and you always knew where you were with boost and load.

This is actually a good assessment of the 6MT. I will acknowledge that I’m not the best at driving a manual, but I’m in my 19th year of driving one, so I like to think I’m decent at it. I will say though, I still struggle with this one a bit; it’s really hard to tell where the clutch pickup point is, even with the spring delete (I haven’t done the valve delete, but we’ll see what happens with this stalling thing first). I just wish the process was a bit more crisp in this car.
I drove a PDK Panamera for a year, and it was fine, but I tended to leave it in drive since having a naturally aspirated V8 would drain the gas tank quickly if I drove it like I do the GTI. ? I imagine I’d have it in manual mode most of the time.

I can definitely see the appeal of DSG though, and from what I’ve heard, outside of PDK, it is one of the better systems, and allows you to add more horsepower as you like. And my wife being able to drive it as needed would be nice.

 

[FactoryMatt]

This is actually a good assessment of the 6MT. I will acknowledge that I’m not the best at driving a manual, but I’m in my 19th year of driving one, so I like to think I’m decent at it. I will say though, I still struggle with this one a bit; it’s really hard to tell where the clutch pickup point is, even with the spring delete (I haven’t done the valve delete, but we’ll see what happens with this stalling thing first). I just wish the process was a bit more crisp in this car.
I drove a PDK Panamera for a year, and it was fine, but I tended to leave it in drive since having a naturally aspirated V8 would drain the gas tank quickly if I drove it like I do the GTI. �� I imagine I’d have it in manual mode most of the time.

I can definitely see the appeal of DSG though, and from what I’ve heard, outside of PDK, it is one of the better systems, and allows you to add more horsepower as you like. And my wife being able to drive it as needed would be nice.

it does work well. i use manual/sport mode exclusively. the 2019 7 speed auto programming is so atrocious, you kind of have to. it lugs the motor so so bad (not surprised LSPI is such an issue!). youre basically 500-750 rpms below what 'feels' right at all times. it's good for creeping in traffic and that's really it.

sad/ironic that getting a TCU tune to protect the motor means you losing your warranty.